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Montage and MODX - Sound Quality output

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I recently did a show with one of a new keyboard artist who owned a MODX. I own Montage.

Surprisingly, during our rehearsals I noticed that the sound quality and his output were terrifically enhanced on his keyboard when connected to the same keyboard amp with EQ levels flat.

I checked his Performances and they were layered just like the way I have done. Example his String Section so heavy that the MODX brought rich, nice colorful ambience on the stage, whereas my Montage was not bringing the ambience on a simple preset performance.

So what am I missing here that disappoints and upsets me? That gentleman was not revealing his trade secrets, should I consider any master EQ?

 
Posted : 17/12/2019 1:04 am
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Others can probably help more, but I will try.

Does the keyboard amp have balanced or unbalanced inputs?
If the keyboard amp has balanced inputs are you using balanced output cables on MONTAGE?
Are both synths using same quality cords?

When I had my KRONOS it was picky about using balanced cables with unbalanced gear, or the other way around.
It would lightly distort the sound and made it a little muddy when I didn't match my cable outs to my amp, monitors or mixer.

Although, it is more likely the MODX was mixed internally to sound the way it did.

If it isn't the cables or MONTAGE balanced line out, unbalanced line out or keyboard in mismatch,
Then I can just about guarantee it has something to do with the MODX master EQ, and possibly the master FX.
Perhaps he put a chorus or other spatial enhancer on the master FX output of his MODX combined with some EQ.
MONTAGE/MODX has some great stereo enhancement FX that can fatten up the master output more.

Hope this was helpful.

 
Posted : 17/12/2019 1:59 am
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Thank you. I used balanced cable. I always use balanced cable for both Kronos snd Montage.

Can someone show me what chorus and spatial enhancer or presets are best? And also show me how to enable MONTAGE/MODX great stereo enhancement FX with screenshots?

 
Posted : 17/12/2019 3:52 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Aravind,
It is difficult to tell you about your situation unless you describe it a bit better.
You have mentioned balanced and unbalanced cables. But not how many... or to exactly what you are connected.

This is critical. Both the MODX and the MONTAGE are stereo devices. When both Left/Right Outputs are connected to a stereo sound system you will get the best results.

The MODX is unbalanced.
The MONTAGE is balanced; and can use either type of cables.

If connecting to a Stereo sound system you must maintain Left channel to left speaker, Right channel to right speaker.
If connecting to a Mono system you need only connect the Output labeled “L/Mono” — the MONTAGE/MODX are able to prevent phase issues by summing both L/R signal to the one Output.
If connecting to a Stereo Input on a single speaker system, this does the same thing as the previous, allows phase coherent summing coming from a Stereo device (but, by definition, a single speaker system is NOT true stereo). In order for this to work on the keyboard amp, you need to connect both L/R outputs from the keyboard.

True stereo requires a minimum of 2 speakers, separated so that a panoramic field is setup in front of the listener positioned between them. Stereo can create the illusion of spatial placement in front of the listeners point. By adding resistance to signal flow going left, the signal will travel more to right channel. As you increase resistance the sound of that signal will seem to move to the right. Each synth Part can be panned independently.

This spatial component to sound, helps us ‘locate’ where the sound is coming from. Mono systems, or a single speaker, is a point source. A system is not stereo by simply adding a second speaker, stereo has some interaction between these two channels. This is used to recreate the illusion of the lead guitar sound coming from slightly right of center, while the rhythm guitar is standing to left of center. You can place things in the field... panorama.

That is to say, just simply having two speakers does not make it stereo... neither does having a stereo input on a single speaker cabinet.
For true stereo, to recreate the stereo illusion, you need to have a minimum of two speakers and the ability to have PAN Control (Panning works by adding resistance to one channel, causing more signal to travel to the opposite channel). Two speakers with exactly the same signal and level will sound like one sound source located directly between the two speakers.

Hope that helps you figure out what’s different.

The MODX should always be connected with unbalanced (TS) cables
The MONTAGE is balanced, and can use either type (TS, TRS)
It is your responsibility to ensure phase correct signal whenever you are summing a stereo instrument into a system with a single speaker.
It is your responsibility to ensure left signal to left channel/speaker, and right signal to right channel/speaker (for best results).

You will severely degrade your resulting sound when improperly summing a stereo signal to a single speaker system.

Enhancing the sound in Mono (or single speaker) system, is subjective. One would need to be there listening to the sound in the environment you are creating the music. It is not something that is like a secret setting, you have to evaluate what you are hearing, and improve it based on what you hear.

 
Posted : 17/12/2019 5:12 pm
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Thanks Bad Mister for the response. The setup was very simple. Lets take an example of a simple living room what we did during rehearsals.

The L and R output of my Montage was a balanced TRS cable going into a 8 channel soundcraft mixer channel 1 & 2. The other keyboardist outputs were same TRS cable running channel 3 & 4 of the mixer.

 
Posted : 18/12/2019 7:05 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Thanks for the reply. Forgive us, but do you mean two cables? TRS on both ends? We are not clear how you are referring to L and R and “a balanced TRS cable” ( It does have two connectors on each end, correct?)

As stated TRS cables on a MODX is incorrect. MODX is unbalanced... and should be using TS cables.

Be sure channels 1 and 2 are panned hard Left and Right
Be sure channels 3 and 4 are panned hard Left and Right

What is the rest of the sound system? ... a Soundcraft mixer is not capable of moving air molecules... what is the amplification and the speakers.

What to do now
From what you have mentioned thus far... take a quality pair of headphones... plug them in your MONTAGE, LISTEN. Then plug the same headphones into the Soundcraft mixer, LISTEN. Make an evaluation about the sound — comparing the MONTAGE signal direct to the MONTAGE through the mixer. Does it enhance or degrade the sound?

Do the same for the MODX.

Then check the stereo integrity connecting from the Soundcraft mixer to the amp. Is the amp stereo?

 
Posted : 18/12/2019 8:29 am
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Ok. Lets keep MODX aside for now in our conversation.

1. I have a Machine 1202 VLZ4 mixer.
2. I have two TRS cables, the ends have TIP, RING, and SLEEVE on both ends. Exactly same. I try to keep my cables as short as 5 feet.
3. Outputs of Montage - labels that reads L/Mono and R goes into Mackie Mixer's Line in 5 and 6 which is a single bus channel on mixer. It has only one PAN control knob.
4. If I connect the Montage Outputs to Line 1 & 2, it has 2 separate bus of two pan knobs each. Then I can hard pan Left and Right. However both does not give any difference.
5. Directly connecting from headphone jack to Bose headphones produces quality sound output. Same quality is obtained from Mixer headphone jack too.

Now, only when I connect the sound output to my Roland KC 550 or KC 200 keyboard amp, the sound output is awful (it sounds BOOM BOOM on piano or string performance on lower notes, windows blinds flatter too!). Notes played on both left and right hand is jarring. EQ knobs adjustment on the keyboard amp did not make any difference.

When Yamaha MO6, MOX or MODX are plugged into the same KC550 keyboard, the sound output is not BOOMY. I have noticed with couple of my friends who had lower version of the Yamaha keyboards sound amazing on keyboard amps in a small closed room.

Hence I'm not sure where do I need to pay attention or what am I missing. Hope these details help.

 
Posted : 19/12/2019 3:32 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

What happened to the Soundcraft?
A Stereo channel on the mixer is fine - keep it panned center.

A Keyboard Amp is not stereo. It may accommodate a Stereo input by coherent phase handling, but by definition those Keyboard amps are not stereo. You would need to add a second identical Keyboard Amp and feed it via a Stereo Link Out, or with a completely separate connection.

When you get weird high and lows, boxy mid-range, and your EQ makes no difference, you have an issue.

I suggest using regular 1/4” TS (unbalanced) cables unless you are certain your Keyboard has 1/4” TRS inputs. Sorry, I don’t know the Roland Amps that well... Either way, you will not have true stereo without a second identical speaker. But at least you will not be degrading the sound.

When Yamaha MO6, MOX or MODX are plugged into the same KC550 keyboard, the sound output is not BOOMY. I have noticed with couple of my friends who had lower version of the Yamaha keyboards sound amazing on keyboard amps in a small closed room.

the MO6, the MOX and the MODX all are unbalanced outputs... connected to unbalanced inputs of your Keyboard amp = a good match.

The MONTAGE is balanced out, connected to unbalanced inputs on your Keyboard = not a good match.

My guess is the inputs of your keyboard amp are unbalanced! Can you verify?
Try using one regular unbalanced TS cable between MONTAGE “L/Mono” Output and a 1/4” input on your Keyboard, see if this doesn’t improve the sound. Let us know.

 
Posted : 19/12/2019 4:14 am
Posts: 30
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The Soundcraft mixer was a situation when I recently played for a show, the new keyboardist wanted me to use a common mixer. Regardless of the setup, the sound output was much different on MODX (strings very so rich!) compared to Montage. The amp was a JBL PA system.

As you suggested, let me try TS cables for keyboard amp and let you know over the weekend.

 
Posted : 19/12/2019 10:02 am
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Alright! Here is what I found. I went to a nearest guitar center and I placed MODX and Montage 61 next to each other. Outputs were connected to a JBL studio monitors through TS cables both ends were same. I ignored it!

I connected a studio Audio Technica headphones to the MODX and Montage one after the other and played the instrument.

1. The key of sampling in every instrument category that I tried on MODX was heard in detailed. The Guitars and Strings were so rich & dynamic!

2. The sound quality was still best on Montage, however the audio output level was somewhat lower than MODX. The key of sampling in MONTAGE was still heard. The player has to tell the listener to pay attention to the key of sampling details, then can be noticeable.

MODX was bit different. When I played a Twin Steel acoustic guitar performance, I felt as if I put my ear close to the guitar in which the strumming pattern and the hand movement swinging in air can be felt. The experience was unimaginable.

I wouldn’t say Montage sound output wasn’t good, instead when I heard MODX sound, it overtook the overall listening experience for live performance.

All these were all experimented using studio headphones only. I then connected both instruments to a balanced Roland Keyboard amp KC550 at the same time. The audio output was still unimaginable on MODX without being “BOOMY” on lower piano notes.

In my opinion I felt, Montage is a music production studio instrument for stereophonic recording. Whereas MODX is a live performance instrument with its output REMASTERED (equal to an audio CD mastering). Also the keys texture of MODX had some tension to my fingers when playing faster notes. On Montage or higher version instruments with semi-weighted action, the keys are glossy and my fingers easily slips when I play faster runs. (My fingers get dry during winters). During such situations I always wet my hand in water to have some surface tension before playing the keyboard.

Sorry, just explained what I experienced. Honestly both instruments are great!

 
Posted : 21/12/2019 8:23 am
Posts: 30
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Topic starter
 

May be something that I play with settings to get same sound listening feel on both?

 
Posted : 21/12/2019 8:26 am
Stefan
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I own both a Montage 6 and a MODX 8. I have coupled them using a USB cable for MIDI. I go into a MIDAS MR18 Mixer. So when I play on one keyboard it triggers both. I can then switch between the two using the mixer. I go into Sennheiser headphones. When both have the same settings and I Play the same performance I cannot hear any difference. If the Montage sounds any worse than the MODX then something is configured differently or the Montage is damaged.

 
Posted : 22/12/2019 10:48 am
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I found that it is definitely not the quality of the sound on Montage. Not broken. Its great still. When I use headphones both sounds great, however the details are little more polished on MODX 61 keys. I’m not sure if the velocity on light key-bed brings out mid element levels more brighter. May be! I don’t know. Velocity curve settings were same too!

I had the same experience with Motif XS 6 and MO6 as well.

You should try using both 61 key version to hear the difference.

 
Posted : 23/12/2019 2:15 am
Stefan
Posts: 0
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It seems that what you say is that the difference is simply the keybed. That’s why I played both synths using both keybeds using the USB cable. So every difference would not be caused by the keybed itself. So the sound quality of the two is similar, there are no big differences, Montage is somewhat better which is mostly interesting in studio situations.

I certainly will not compare the keybeds. I am extremely happy with the Montage 6 and pretty happy with the MODX 8 keybed. The MODX 6 is similar to the MOXF 6 keybed which I had and hated... way too light. That’s totally personal preference, of course!

 
Posted : 23/12/2019 8:22 am
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