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Montage Insert Effects : what about Wet/Dry parameter ?

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 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Hello,

I'm used to play on Kronos, where all effects get a Wet/Dry parameter, whatever its position (Insert, Master, Total).

I'm sure its easy but I don't find the Wet/Dry parameter (parameter 10) on some Montage effects as VPM Phaser for example. In Reverb and Variation, its not a problem as we can set Send/Return parameters, but in Insert Effect there is no Send/Retun.

Why is this tenth parameter empty ? I don't understand. And how to get such a balance W/D setting in Insert Effect ?

I'm sure I've been missing something, but what ?

Thank you.

 
Posted : 26/01/2021 7:46 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

I'm sure its easy but I don't find the Wet/Dry parameter (parameter 10) on some Montage effects as VPM Phaser for example.

we’re sure you mean VCM Phaser Mono and VCM Stereo... VCM is a Yamaha Modeling technology “Virtual Circuitry Modeling” — which uses modeling to recreate the behavior of the modeled item from the level of its capacitors and resistors. It recreates the electronic circuits of classic effects and electronic sound gear (we’re quite sure you did not find these in your previous synth) lol

The VCM Effects mentioned here, happened to be physical models of classic effect processors. The VCM Phasers are physical models of classic Stomp Boxes (which actually did not have a Dry/Wet Balance). These classic stomp boxes from the 1970s are authentic recreations.

They are typically inserted inline with the instrument. A Guitar plugs into a Phaser stomp box, the output of the Phaser is directed to the input of the Wah-Wah Pedal, the output of that goes to the guitar Amp. It’s like the textbook definition of Insertion Effects.

in Insert Effect there is no Send/Retun.

That is correct! Whether or not there is a Dry/Wet Balance will depend on the individual Effect Type. The SEND/RETURN scenario is designed exactly like the Aux Sends of a mixing console!

100% of the signal goes through these “stomp box” Phaser type Effects.
With Send/Return you can control the Send amount... you will see on the MONTAGE the “Dry Level” is a programmable parameter. This allows you when using a stomp box type effect on the Variation Send, you can eliminate the Dry signal by setting the Level = 0
From the HOME screen, tap “Mixing” - the overview of your mixer... notice the Dry Level per Part.

When they are physical models, they are based on specific effect processors; they attempt to faithfully recreate the original effect and its response.

Utility Insertion Effect Type like EQ’s and Compressor/Limiters do not feature a Dry/Wet balance, either, because they do not have one... again 100% of the signal is processed by these Effect Types. (It would be ludicrous to EQ only 60% of the signal or to compress just a portion of the signal... these are universal truths).

Those Effect types where it is common to have Dry/Wet balances, you’ll likely find them. The variety of Effects offered in the MONTAGE include advanced Physical Modeling as well as your standard Effect Types.

Extra Credit: These were staples in the mid-1970s
If you can find an old “Small Stone” (ElectroHarmonix) and an old “Phase 90” (MXR) set them up next to the VCM Phasers — take a trip in the sonic time machine! The original Small Stone had but a “Color” switch and a Rate knob! While the Phase 90 had only Speed. They each had that super loud BYPASS stomp switch (ouch)... if you want to recreate the interruption in sound this caused just manually tap the “On/Off” box to shut the Effect Off (ouch)... guitar players never heard this but it was an issue in the studio... there is a better way...

If you are looking to do something like “balance” the effect to the non-effected signal, you want to work with the DEPTH parameter. This is assignable to a real time controller... Notice when you highlight the DEPTH parameter, the [CONTROL ASSIGN] button glows - signifying this parameter can be assigned to a physical controller;
Press [CONTROL ASSIGN] and then move the controller (learn) to which you want assign control. Mod Wheel, Ribbon (hold), Assign Knob are typical control sources.

You are taken to the Control Set... you can also see all parameters currently assigned to the one you selected.
Hope that helps.

 
Posted : 26/01/2021 2:39 pm
 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

As I told you, Korg did the choice to keep the virtual vintage stombox W/D parameter available. Yamaha did another choice.

I agree with you regarding EQ.

Thank you, Bad Mister, for all these details. You've explained the Yamaha's choice.

 
Posted : 26/01/2021 4:09 pm
Jason
Posts: 7918
Illustrious Member
 

Having "dry/wet" for anything and everything makes musical sense no matter if original equipment has that feature or not. At least so this effect parameter could be targeted by the modulation matrix and turn "on" and "off" various effects - including compression.

When original equipment doesn't have this feature - you grab a bypass or A/B pedal. So, effectively, real-world equipment all has this feature regardless if there are conventions against doing so.

Musical genres were born out of doing the "wrong" thing. Yamaha should nurture "sonic misuse" by designing engine flexibility.

 
Posted : 26/01/2021 9:44 pm
Antony
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
 

@Fred...

You should refer to the Montage Data_List_Manual and the Synth_Parameter_Manual for these tips.

Effects, for the most part, can be used in InsA, InsB, or Variation.

Reverb Effect Block only allows Reverb Types. Master Effect Block is limited to certain types of Effect also (Check on Montage Common Edit - Effect - Master.

1) Some Effects DO have Wet/Dry Balance. This is written on the screen (when editing effect in Variation, InsA or InsB) as:-
Dnn Wnn. Example D=W is 50/50 mix. D40>W24 would indicate Dry is louder than Wet, use ears to dial in Mix.

2) Bad Mister is correct, many classic effects do not have a Wet/Dry mix... good examples are Phasers, Choruses and Flangers where the effect typically relies on a 50/50 Dry/Wet balance. Jason is also correct that sometimes these types of effect are put in a Parallel "mixing" loop, allowing the "wet" effect to be reduced in the mix.
Again their are some alternatives in the effect category that allow this - Compressor (Parallel compression) is at least one I am aware of. Check the Synth_Parm and Data_List.

3) Note: By Default, The Variation and Reverb are in a Parallel Loop to the Dry (as mentioned by Bad Mister - Dry Send vs Var Send/Return & Rev Send/Return). Also by Default the Variation is in Parallel to the Reverb - But you can change this. You can Route nn% of the output of Variation direct to the Input of Reverb - See :Variation to Reverb" parameter.

Example Variation (Delay) -> Reverb (Hall).
Send leveld need to be done per Part, and Return levels set in Performance Common:-

Rev Send =0
Var Send = 127 (or whatever)
Var Return = 0
Var to Rev = 127
Rev Return = 80 (or whatever)

4) You can create pseudo Wet/Dry scenarios in Insert Effects with parallel identical elements or parallel identical Parts. Check that a Wet/Dry or Alternative option is not available first, because this will sacrifice 1 Insert effect and chew up Polyphony.

Example 1

Part 1
elementX 1 -> InsA (FX) -> Wet
elementX 2 -> InsB (Thru) -> Dry

Set InsA Parallel InsB
Set Dry/Wet with Osc/Level Balance

Example 2

Part 1
all elements -> InsA->InsB -> Wet

Part 2 (copy of Part 1)
all elements -> InsA/B Thru -> Dry

Mix with Part Sliders.

5) Basic Modulation Effects such as Tremolo, Vibrato, Panning, Chorus, Phasing can be created using the LFO without the need to use an Effect block. You'll need to read up on this.

 
Posted : 27/01/2021 12:07 am
 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Having "dry/wet" for anything and everything makes musical sense no matter if original equipment has that feature or not. At least so this effect parameter could be targeted by the modulation matrix and turn "on" and "off" various effects - including compression.

When original equipment doesn't have this feature - you grab a bypass or A/B pedal. So, effectively, real-world equipment all has this feature regardless if there are conventions against doing so.

Musical genres were born out of doing the "wrong" thing. Yamaha should nurture "sonic misuse" by designing engine flexibility.

Absolutely agree with you.
Thank you for your answer.

 
Posted : 27/01/2021 8:42 am
 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Thank you Antony.

About the points 1,2,3 I was OK.
Thanks for the point 4, it's a good idea.
The point 5 is an interesting way to explore, too. thanks.

 
Posted : 27/01/2021 8:45 am
 Fred
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Extra Credit: These were staples in the mid-1970s
If you can find an old “Small Stone” (ElectroHarmonix) and an old “Phase 90” (MXR) set them up next to the VCM Phasers — take a trip in the sonic time machine! The original Small Stone had but a “Color” switch and a Rate knob! While the Phase 90 had only Speed. They each had that super loud BYPASS stomp switch (ouch)... if you want to recreate the interruption in sound this caused just manually tap the “On/Off” box to shut the Effect Off (ouch)... guitar players never heard this but it was an issue in the studio... there is a better way...

If you are looking to do something like “balance” the effect to the non-effected signal, you want to work with the DEPTH parameter. This is assignable to a real time controller... Notice when you highlight the DEPTH parameter, the [CONTROL ASSIGN] button glows - signifying this parameter can be assigned to a physical controller;
Press [CONTROL ASSIGN] and then move the controller (learn) to which you want assign control. Mod Wheel, Ribbon (hold), Assign Knob are typical control sources.

You are taken to the Control Set... you can also see all parameters currently assigned to the one you selected.
Hope that helps.

Thank you again Bad Mister for your advices.
I've had some Electro-Harmonix pedal in the 70's (Small Stone, Big Muff, Deluxe Electric Mistress). Unfortunaltely I sold them in the 80's. I was not really aware enough of their muical value. The Small Stone was really great, the flanger too.

 
Posted : 27/01/2021 9:21 am
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