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now these are some samples

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Darryl
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[quotePost id=119026]When it comes to making pasta sauces, there are basic recipes and ingredients that can be followed and mimicked, and there's basic processes and techniques to get a result that's different from the norm, and then there's significant differences between what we think is the base of a dish versus the authentic best.
For example, it's objectively impossible to come close to great carbonara sauces with all the cremes of the world. It's eggs that are needed, instead. [/quotePost]
Times change and people find ways to simulate and emulate foods much better than years ago. Even some of the vegan options are getting closer to meat based products, but here's some food for thought:
Up until May 2021 it would have been almost crazy to think you could blindfold a piano player and have them try to guess what acoustic grand they are playing, when in fact they are actually playing a hybrid digital piano. With a few tweaks of the speaker system there is now a greater likelihood of tricking some piano players into thinking they are playing an acoustic piano when they are actually sitting at a Kawai NOVUS NV10S Hybrid Digital Piano...

They're thin, lite, homogenised and pasteurised cremes undercooked and smeared over mass produced pasta boiled past al dente.
And that's before we discuss the pig in the room, the cut and treatment of the meat.

Maybe it just boils down to everyone having different tastes and we just accept our differences 😉

All this talk of food is making me hungry for a Montage multi-reverb sandwich ... Yummy!! :p

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 2:46 am
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Yep. Two different sensory worlds.

My words are tempered because I greatly enjoy what I hear of what's well done in terms of spacial effects, which causes me to feel immensely sorry for those that can't, and even more so for those that steadfastly won't.

Valhalla offers a free reverb that's orders of magnitude better than anything in the Yamaha. You owe it to yourself to at least TRY to hear the difference, I think.

https://valhalladsp.com/shop/reverb/valhalla-supermassive/

Bill, I can code some types of reverb, and you can at least take the time to understand what reverb is conceptually such that you get a feel for how significantly more than a mere effect it is. It is THE effect. Just the other day you were confusing reverb and delay, which is somewhat understandable, they both engage the environment and involve reflections within, absorption and escape... etc... simulated.

But as a starting point, think about this: it's simulated spaces... right there, you should already be off to the races in terms of realising just how variant and dependent results will be upon both algorithmic qualities and CPU limitations...

It's often orders of magnitude in favour of the specialist stuff... which is truly delicious, sumptuous and bliss inducing.

That kind of difference is noticeable, even to a programmer.

It's like UHT lite-creme that's been crisped until it's non-organic and then reduced through itself in a ridiculously hot frypan vs an egg that's merely heated gently till it thickens...

...at which point I'm reminded that some of you have food allergies and/or spiritual reasons to not... and my heart cries for you, even more.

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 3:17 am
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[quotePost id=119032]

Bill, I can code some types of reverb

LOL!

No - you can't. At least for sure you won't. You sometimes, like now, talk a good game but you never have delivered in the past.

[/quotePost]

Do some homework on reverbs, Bill. You'll find that what I'm talking about resonates, especially well within your skull, I'm sure.

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 3:44 am
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[quotePost id=119034]You said you could code some reverbs. Let us know when and where we can download what you code and I'll do some homework on your work.

Thanks for the generous offer.[/quotePost]

Just so you get a feel for the real: I should have said I have. Past tense. It's done, and incorporated in a game I'm working on.

The reverberations within exhaust canisters are used to significantly contribute to various engine sounds, which (in a nutshell) are simulated through quite simplistic waves being broadcast out and into these virtualised canisters based on piston firings and header lengths, combined with various simulated intake noises and a "dry" sound of these explosions (pistons firing) and some simulated gear and diff whines.

It's neither here nor there to prove anything to you, for me. And it'll never mean anything to me that I mean nothing to you.

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 4:11 am
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[quotePost id=119012][quotePost id=119007]

Don't tempt me Frodo :p
That's actually a great one and I can see me possibly using it in a song somewhere, so I am quite tempted, but I have a few things I'm working on that I need to finish first...not sure how long before I would even be able to work on sound like that.

If I do end up doing that one, I will likely make it even better sounding, with slightly better sounds & reverb/effects instead.
[/quotePost]

@ Daryl...Im sorry if you have time to type all this info on this site you could have made at least one sound by now. You sound like "I know but I'm not telling". We should learn a lesson from this posting.

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 11:54 am
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@ Andrew. Yes way better reverbs out there than what Yamaha has. The only way around it is to put that supermassive on the backend of the Montage. Its a shame since we have been requesting better reverbs since the Montage first came out. They dont know how,. its that simple.

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 11:56 am
Darryl
Posts: 784
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[quotePost id=119031]Valhalla offers a free reverb that's orders of magnitude better than anything in the Yamaha. You owe it to yourself to at least TRY to hear the difference, I think.

https://valhalladsp.com/shop/reverb/valhalla-supermassive/

Bill, I can code some types of reverb, and you can at least take the time to understand what reverb is conceptually such that you get a feel for how significantly more than a mere effect it is. It is THE effect. Just the other day you were confusing reverb and delay, which is somewhat understandable, they both engage the environment and involve reflections within, absorption and escape... etc... simulated.
[/quotePost]

I listened to the Valhalla clips. They sound great. There is a lot more than just reverb being added as effects to those sounds. There are long delays with the reverbs added in, plus the equivalent of various motion sequencing here and there.

I could easily emulate those on the Montage and make them sound as good or better. Just takes time and tweaking with the awesome super high quality effects on the Montage, ensuring to use the correct effects (not the regular reverb HD Hall)

How about you take a basic sound like the Preset Performance "FM Saw Pad", then mute the 2nd PART, remove ALL the effects from the 1st PART (disable Insert effects and turn the VarSend & RevSend to 0), then run it through your best Reverb and see how much better it sounds than this (which is what I did, except I used Montage Reverbs):

https://soundcloud.com/dclowe/montage-shimmer

I am curious to hear the difference...

[quotePost id=119037]Im sorry if you have time to type all this info on this site you could have made at tleast oen sound by now. You sound like a "I knonw but Im not telling". We should learn a lesson from this posting.[/quotePost]

Note that when I program sounds on the Montage, it takes time. I am a tweaker and extremely particular, so when designing sounds, I take time to get the right core (dry) sounds, then add in the proper effects, EQ'ing, LFO, etc., and refine, tweak, re-tweak, etc.

Check out the experiment I did a while back as per the Soundcloud clip above and let me know if the Montage effects I put on this basic stripped down "FM Saw Pad" would sound better with another reverb, and if so, show me..!?

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 12:04 pm
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HI Dayrl thank for sharing your soundcloud shimmer sound. It sounds nice but sorry its not as good as Valhalla Supermassive or Xenoverb or Valhalla Shimmer. Montage doesnt have the ability to do a proper shimmer. I have tried and tried.

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 12:32 pm
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I think the easy option is spend the $80 to buy the Kontakt instrument

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 1:11 pm
Darryl
Posts: 784
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[quotePost id=119040]HI Dayrl thank for sharing your soundcloud shimmer sound. It sounds nice but sorry its not as good as Valhalla Supermassive or Xenoverb or Valhalla Shimmer. Montage doesnt have the ability to do a proper shimmer. I have tried and tried. [/quotePost]
Can you take the simple dry "FM Saw Pad" Performance (PART1 only) and add the Valhalla Shimmer so I can hear the difference?

I think that the big names "Valhalla" "Supermassive" "Xenoverb", etc. with the much nicer looking UI's could be clouding your judgements on the not as pretty Montage, such that since those other products have cooler sounding names, are being hyped up, and have better looking UI, then they must 'Sound' better... I wonder if maybe you are perceiving them to sound better than the Montage, because of those things, when in fact the Montage is far more capable of doing things you typically don't hear on most of the Preset Performances, especially in terms of utilization of many of the high quality effects..!?
Maybe you haven't tried the right effect or tweaked it properly to make it do what it's truly capable of..!?
And in many cases there isn't much documentation on what is there under the hood, so you may never stumble across or find those gems. Recently as you may have read in another thread I didn't realize right away that a specific ARP was already there and I spent a number of hours trying to create various custom ARPs in Pro Tools, but couldn't get them to work...the functionality was already in a Preset, but just not documented well enough to find quickly & easily. But I did find it... There are so many things there inside the belly of the beast, waiting & unfound ... half the fun for me is to find them & use them!
So I wonder for you if it's more perception that the Montage can't 'sound' as awesome or cool, because it doesn't look or feel that way, and more hype with the other effects!?

I did that "FM Saw Pad" test in a matter of an hour or 2, tops. I never usually do anything in that short a span of time when programming sounds/effects. I usually spend several days or weeks, depending on what I'm doing, to find/create/program sounds, adjust them, tweak them, re-tweak them...

I've listened to all of the links/clips you've share in this thread and they all sound great!! I love those type of synth sounds. Of that I think we can all agree! And I would love to have many of those sounds as well... 😉

I also don't feel any need to utilize my Waves IR1 Convolution Reverbs or Effects, my Spectrasonics Omnisphere sounds, nor the Valhalla, Supermassiv, Xenoverb effects to achieve those sounds on the Montage, as I am fully 100% confident that I can emulate those and in many cases surpass them. For me, the more massive sounding, the darker, the more billowing, the more contrast, the more everything...the better!!
I haven't even heard all of the effects on the Montage yet...maybe 80-90% of them I've touched just to hear a small amount of what they can do via Presets...and some of the ones I've touched, I've heard the potential of what they could be used for and potentially do. Some of them are super awesome and freaking kool, whereby I've never heard some of those particular effects/sounds before on anything.
There is some super awesome functionality and effects on the Montage that no other software or hardware synth or effects on this planet can emulate, and are specifically designed by Yamaha engineers & only possible on the Montage/MODX(+) synths, such as the Extended LFO and Wave Folder...

I plan to do something along the lines of the video clips you shared, possibly emulate one of them to start with, or create something entirely new that's massive sounding & mind blowing...

Utilizing the SPX Hall or HD Hall reverbs are great for certain sounds, instruments, but for the stuff you guys have linked here & are looking to do, those are not the right reverbs... Reverse Reverb, Early Reflection and Space Simulator are the ones to use, along with Pitch Change and a few other effects.
I will get to it, as it's something I have an interest in too. Like I said, I want those sounds on the Montage the same as you do, and I know it's all there waiting in a not as pretty a UI, but the sound capabilities & effects are all there.
I am completely confident with no doubt that I can make those type sounds on the Montage... I think the Montage is a complete Super Massive Beast that I know I have not yet fully tapped into.
Once I'm done with a few projects that I'm working on, I'll create a Performance with some super awesome and massive sounds, filtering, movement, effects, etc. I'll make sure to only use Presets for everything so that I can share it too... 😉

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 2:19 pm
Jason
Posts: 7923
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I think it's fair to say that one piece of software or equipment doesn't create a carbon copy of the other's audio output when using the same gestures to excite those (press piano keys, aftertouch, wheels, knobs, etc).

Take the B3 with a Leslie 122 rotating speaker - this is something fairly concrete that all keyboard vendors and multiple models have tried to capture the essence of. Let's ignore that there's variation in what a B3 can sound like (differences in leakage, tubes and replacement tunes used, capacitor aging, etc etc ...) and how a Leslie can sound for the same reasons and including mechanical belt stuff or other modifications. At any rate, so many manufacturers have been chasing the same target and getting a 100% identical experience as sitting down at a B3 is difficult - some say impossible. What we end up with are approximations. Some are really, really good. Some are very, very far off the mark. And stuff in between. Somewhere in the range of the "between" and "really good" B3 clones is a line that most organists of a particular time regard as acceptable for the gig. Something they're proud of using. I say "particular time" because the line moves as technology and techniques improve thus raising the bar. This line of acceptance is something that is stated as a bit of an average. Of course there are outliers - individuals who have a very high bar that cannot be satisfied with anything except for a real B3 with a real Leslie. On the other hand, most folks that comment on the YC61 say that its modeled tonewheels and new updated Leslie, although not 100% perfect, is an acceptable approximation.

Usually (and for these sounds), I fall into the non-outlier community. Where I'm good with not exact but close enough. We all have different goals - and that's OK. Since I don't record solo pieces so that every nuance of what I play is front-and-center, I also have the bias of knowing how I sit in a mix and what, as a matter of opinion, is worth doing to shape my sound vs. not.

And, as I've alluded to - there's nothing wrong with having a different approach - a different line of acceptance. For any reason. Our differences in reasons and background give spice to the music we create.

Therefore, I see both sides here. It's valid to say that you can create reasonable emulations of most of these sounds that would satisfy many. And also that there are many that would consider aspects of these sounds impossible to recreate on the Montage/MODX. And to them, only the "real B3" will do (or analogous synth/patch emulated).

When I sat down yesterday I took the "Etherial" Performance (my keyboard had two of them maybe because the Motif XF set has the same name - I picked the first of the two. The one that's a lush pad). And changed out some of the effects and effect settings. Changed the amplitude envelopes. I created a big sound that was right dead center in the middle of the "spirit" of many of the sounds in the original youtube video. It took me maybe 30 minutes to do. However, these are my own ears. And my own brain says it's pretty close. Your ears and brain may differ. That's ok - it's a subjective thing.

There's not an absolute answer possible.

And - speaking of B3 clones ... I've been on the other side of this too. Where I've been vocal about the rotating speaker on Montage/MODX and agreed with Ujiie's thought that the rotating speaker emulation was "sub par". That's a judgement call. Most seem to agree - but of course some also have the notion that it's good enough for whatever their goals are.

My approach is to present what I'm after - maybe show other competing equipment that does this feature better - and wish for improvements. Then I have a gig and pack up my keyboard, do the show, and move on (well, unless another post stirs up the same topic). The hope (and, honestly, belief) is that Yamaha is listening and has the capability to deliver. The timeline is somewhat of a mystery so I try not to make that get me down.

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 3:26 pm
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I got rid of the pitch wobble in the part, and got rid of the slight pitch offsets in the operators, as that fake analogue warbling was annoying me.

Starts with one note, for quite a while, and then add a few higher notes, then release at about the 15 second mark and the reverb then climbs a bit on its own, into what I tried to make a bit of a voice like "arghhhhh" to the reverb.

Also crimped it and faded it out, as it goes for much longer, at least another 25 seconds, but there's a file size limit that would have been hit if it goes much longer than this.

And one ore thing, that one part was fully Left, so I centred it.

...just one more thing, this is 100% wet, so you don't hear the FM part at all, only reverb.

Attached files

reverby.mp3.zip (1.6 MB) 

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 4:26 pm
Darryl
Posts: 784
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[quotePost id=119047]And - speaking of B3 clones ... I've been on the other side of this too. Where I've been vocal about the rotating speaker on Montage/MODX and agreed with Ujiie's thought that the rotating speaker emulation was "sub par". That's a judgement call. Most seem to agree - but of course some also have the notion that it's good enough for whatever their goals are.

My approach is to present what I'm after - maybe show other competing equipment that does this feature better - and wish for improvements. Then I have a gig and pack up my keyboard, do the show, and move on (well, unless another post stirs up the same topic). The hope (and, honestly, belief) is that Yamaha is listening and has the capability to deliver. The timeline is somewhat of a mystery so I try not to make that get me down.[/quotePost]
Yeah that's fair to say. The rotating speaker on the Montage/MODX is "sub par" and all we can do is hope they provide an effect in a future OS release that allows them to sound/operate like the YC does. Until then, I'm quite happy with using 2 Rotary Speaker 1 effects combined as per the Organimation organs, which gives me that effect "above par" ... and now my glass is more than half full 😉

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 4:48 pm
Darryl
Posts: 784
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[quotePost id=119050]I got rid of the pitch wobble in the part, and got rid of the slight pitch offsets in the operators, as that fake analogue warbling was annoying me.
Starts with one note, for quite a while, and then add a few higher notes, then release at about the 15 second mark and the reverb then climbs a bit on its own, into what I tried to make a bit of a voice like "arghhhhh" to the reverb.
[/quotePost]
Was that using the "FM Saw Pad" or the "Etherial" Performance that Jason mentioned?
Either way nice work, it sounds great...nice and dark, with chime like tones or harmonics, then the higher harmonic at the end. cool!

So there's always multiple ways to skin a cat, and regardless of whichever Performance was used I can emulate that sound on just the Montage.
One way would be using a few effects, such possibly Wave Folder, with Space Simulator, Pitch Change, Early Reflection using the right feedback, and there's an effect that will do the chime harmonics, but I can't remember the name & would either have to find it or modify the FM PART for it. Another way would be just a few reverb effects and modify the FM-X PART more, using a few parameters set to the Mod wheel for control, as that has FM written all over it... If I had the time, it would be kool to emulate it both ways and see which one sounds better.

It would probably take me a few hours or so to do, but for me that's part of the challenge & the fun...
Nice to have just one effect to do it with though, especially when time is a factor ... good stuff! 😉

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 5:17 pm
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sounds like we are all on the same page now. SO we can all agree we are inspired by the Youtube soundset. Maybe I will have some time this weekend to try and copy a sound or two. I will upload to Soundmondo for review.

 
Posted : 28/10/2022 5:59 pm
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