I suppose Yamaha has done some sort of competitor market research and investigation and feel pretty confident no competitor will release anything ahead of their new synth if they intend to drag it on into next year. If something arrives unexpected Yamaha could then release ETA and spec. information to challenge whatever might be arriving ahead of their schedule. They can only be as lax as the competition and CK/MODX+ sales allows. I think it was planned &/or coordinated in advance that MODX+ (is keeping the Montage ghost alive) with CK filling out the stage market demand while they prepare for the new synth release. Notice they skipped the 73/76 version to get it going quicker. At least the CK61 fulfills the organ/rompler demand and the 88 fulfills the piano player demands. Might still release a CK73 I suppose as easy is that is to accomplish on coattails. I still think evidence exists that this will be a completely different synth and not a Montage+.

🙁

[quotePost id=121633]I suppose Yamaha has done some sort of competitor market research and investigation and feel pretty confident no competitor will release anything ahead of their new synth if they intend to drag it on into next year.[/quotePost]
I doubt they know what the competitors will be releasing and when. This is one of the reasons all these companies have NDAs to begin with, to stop competitors from knowing their plans/

[quotePost id=121633]Notice they skipped the 73/76 version to get it going quicker. [/quotePost]
I don't know if it would have been any slower to arrive if they were to have a 7x, but Yamaha has traditionally gone light on that size. There's no 7x-key MX, and before the MODX, the didn't make 7x-keys of any of their "junior" workstations (MOXF, MOX, MM, MO). I would have liked to have seen a non-hammer CK7x, which would have also somewhat addressed that the YC73 and CP73 are hammer action boards, which is not what everyone is looking for at that size (though of course are also welcomed by many as well). It's unfortunate that offering hammer and non-hammer versions of the same board in a 7x-key size is so rare... off-hand, Nord is the only brand I can think of that does that.

There's no way to please everyone. Nor should that be a goal. It waters down the end result so everything is weak vs. a more focused product.

There are those who are vocal about believing their gear is not sufficient to make music and need the next model to stay relevant. That's a fine position to have and the market gives what it gives in terms of choices. The latest Nord is an alternative among others.

I'm not in that camp. I can keep using Montage for several more years and won't exceed its capacity to deliver what I need for my shows. That doesn't make my perspective better - just different. I doubt my take is unique - I'm sure there's a pool of customers with the same mindset. They're not going to be complaining and it's much easier to metric complaints than satisfaction.

Along with not needing the next version anytime soon - I also would like to see more "bake time" of the new product. As in the next generation (not a plus model, but a "true" next generation). I would like to see more innovation and/or refinement and/or customer-guided features (Ideascale and other sources) than would otherwise be achievable without more space between releases.

Ultimately it's not up to me to decide what the release cadence should be even though I have a preference. Yamaha has to keep the boat afloat and has capable folks to keep track of how to best do this. The next version will come whenever it does. Until then - enjoy making music with what you have.

I mean more of a historical tracking, statistics and tendency of competitors based on current and past successes, current market and projected timelines. I'm sure competitors also read our forums for free and know what we want and then put that inside their gear to steal Yamaha customers. Yamaha can also probably guess/gauge closely others and what if Roland is planning a Fantom+ at same time of a best guess release of the Yamaha Mosaic or Montage AN1x, etc.?

I'm sure competitors also realize there are no more Montages in stock same as Yamaha realizing if the Fantom was offline.

If it's any consolation, Yamaha generally releases a new top-of-the-line Synth/Workstation BEFORE they release a new top-of-the-line Arranger keyboard. For instance, the Montage was released in 2016 and then about a year later the Genos was announced in October 2017, and they were in stores by late November here in the USA. That said, another clue that a new Montage (or whatever they decide to call it) is coming down the pike, is the fact the current Montage is out of stock basically everywhere you look. OTOH, Yamaha isn't shipping the Genos to brick and mortar stores currently from what I understand but they're still in stock online. Since the current Montage is out of stock everywhere you look means Yamaha is potentially missing out on quite a bit of revenue so therefore if money is important to them, like it is to every business, then that really bodes well that we'll see a new Montage, etc., sooner rather than later. And then a new Genos should arrive about a year later if past is prologue. But I must admit the global pandemic kind of messed up a lot of things, including chip shortages, various parts shortages, and the supply chain crisis. For all we know, Yamaha might have decided to pull the plug on building any new high-end workstation keyboard/arranger product(s) like Roland did after the Fantom G workstation series (2008) and the G-70 Arranger (2005) that didn't sell very well from what I understand. Roland waited 11 years before they finally released the current Fantom series in 2019 but they still haven't released a new high-end arranger. OTOH, both the Montage and the Genos have sold very well so I hope Yamaha isn't thinking the same type of scenario as Roland did but only time will tell. Enjoy what you play!

You're only thinking about supply side economics. Yamaha must also consider demand side economics as much, or more, because even if you solve the supply side issues somehow, you can and will still be impacted by the demand side.

Demand side economics have seen their greatest impact in human history --> lockdowns; of near indiscriminate lengths and extents, accepted as a means of curtailing an airborne virus. That's forever shattered human confidence and demand side economic theories, for just about all categories of products, especially for entertainment products.

The low hanging fruit approach is, therefore, the most likely approach. That's a Montage+ that justifies (somewhat) a sustained and increased price point via an absolutely minimal retooling and R&D cost, in conjunction with a lockdown proof product... which is a standalone sequencer/song maker for at home production, DAW-less production (and potentially live performances) with external hardware integration and control. This is something that Yamaha has been very good at making in the past, and widely known for.

Imagine one that works well with the existing user bases of Montage and MODX and the + models, and any other existing gear that potential buyers might have. Here's an example, from a line they did in the past, the QY700, to various levels of acclaim:

https://youtu.be/4IQAtPtJsfY

Btw, you may have noticed Yamaha started promoting this line of thought about the time they'd have realised that demand side economics was forever changed.

The pandemic seems to have impacted the CK design or at least directed it more towards affordability, portability and ultimate simplicity and automation. The YC has an on/off EQ button whereas the CK automatically is activated when you touch the slider. The organ automatically comes on when you select an organ voice there's no on/off button or switch. Maybe it was the portability focus that lead to the lighter components but lighter typically means something gets sacrificed somewhere which is probably why the YC still sounds better IMO. The quick select category buttons is what YC really needed instead of a selector knob that has to be reversed in direction constantly which was not a smart way to change categories. I love the rocker switches those are cool once you are in the desired category. That selector knob should have had more options as well instead of everything else lumped under "others". That whole design was messed up whereas everything else was pretty. ALmost like the selector was an afterthought instead of a primary design consideration. If you think about it category fast/direct selector buttons have been around forever, not like CK just invented it. The YC designers and testers had to have noticed how inconvenient and annoying that knob was and used it anyway. But once there the rocker switch is awesome but still not as convenient as the many category selector buttons. I know the panel design was the focus and that cool YC styling which forced the selector knob to be the only option. At least more categories with an endless dial would have made it 100% better as it was. The CK is extremely well thought out and organized just wish it wasn't a toy and sounded as good as the YC.

[quotePost id=121697]The pandemic seems to have impacted the CK design or at least directed it more towards affordability, portability and ultimate simplicity and automation. [/quotePost]
I doubt those decisions were pandemic related... why would they be? Portability, when no one could go anywhere, and performers had nowhere to perform? 😉 But I do like their moves toward simplicity. For all its remaining complications, I still thing Montage/MODX was a good move toward less complexity than the Motif predecessors (e.g. the elimination of so much mode-dependent stuff). And then YC and CP brought them in a whole new (for them) direction with greater simplicity. But just as every Motif and Montage yielded followup more affordable derivative products, I would expect that a more affordable CP/YC derivative was likewise long on their radar.

[quotePost id=121697]lighter typically means something gets sacrificed somewhere which is probably why..[/quotePost]
Lighter does typically mean something gets sacrificed... but even more so, so does cheaper!

Perhaps now that I have less money and sick of being locked up ( more so than country folks would be city folks in tight quarters) so I want a cheaper, lightweight board with speakers so I can sit on my porch or out by the water, park, yard and play. I can toss the CK61 in a backpack and stay away from crowds. Take it camping or to the lodge etc. Somewhat related depending on your situation.

[quotePost id=121702]Perhaps now that I have less money and sick of being locked up ( more so than country folks would be city folks in tight quarters) so I want a cheaper, lightweight board with speakers so I can sit on my porch or out by the water, park, yard and play. I can toss the CK61 in a backpack and stay away from crowds. Take it camping or to the lodge etc. Somewhat related depending on your situation. [/quotePost]
Or you could just carry a Montage 8 under one arm, a UPS under the other, and bring some headphones like The Hulk does :p jk
The CK sounds like a great choice for camping, etc. 😉

[quotePost id=121702]a cheaper, lightweight board with speakers so I can sit on my porch or out by the water, park, yard and play. I can toss the CK61 in a backpack and stay away from crowds. Take it camping or to the lodge etc. [/quotePost]
Yamaha has long had products for those kinds of uses, e.g. numerous Piaggero and PSR models. Really, I think "pandemic-targeted" products are unlikely... development lead times are too long, and the "pandemic sales window" was unknown (and would hopefully be short). But to your bigger point, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the pandemic led to an uptick in these kinds of "personal entertainment" boards,

I'm not sure if Yamaha are checking out other forums regarding discussions on the Montage flagship; However just in case they are not, I thought I would share this for Blake, Ben and all the Yamaha reps on here who may not be aware:

https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19182&start=495

I believe it is the longest thread that forum has ever had, with nearly 500 posts and over 29,000 views.
Many are Yamaha fans who own a Montage or MODX/MODX+, and others are potential customers who want to buy a new flagship, but are waiting to find out what is going to happen with the Montage. No one wants to buy the last of Montage stock to find out a month later that it has been discontinued.

Some are saying that Yamaha don't appear to understand why people are so frustrated about all this and that they may be still too detached from their user base, despite all the talk about wanting to engage with them.

I guess this all just benefits Yamaha in the end and keeps people interested, as others have suggested on here. For some it keeps the interest or excitement levels high, while others it causes frustration, especially those who want to buy a flagship synth but are waiting to see what happens. But it would be even better & more benefit if Yamaha reps sometimes engaged in some threads both here and other forums on a more regular basis. I get that sometimes it's best to stay silent & there are things that simply can not be discussed or mentioned for various reasons, and yet at the same time I think it's beneficial to engage with your user base to some degree...

Happy Friday All
Darryl

Osmose is coming! NO!, It's already here. Name that movie quote. Yamaha has to move into the MPE game now that the gauntlet has been dropped. Makes me wonder concerning the next generation. A unit that is multitimbral but that can layer an MPE voice over the top would be fun. I have the YC73/CK/ASM MIDI'd up to the Osmose because it does need a backing layer to round out the sound. I'm sure a double brain Osmose will be coming eventually where you can split and layer etc. Even my YC sounds better playing through the Osmose and it's not polytouch but the contacts trigger notes better or with improved response and volume etc. I'm thinking that if Yamaha wants to be cutting edge the Montage replacement could be MPE. I seriously doubt with Roli and others that Yamaha was blindsided by Osmose. Maybe they don't care but they might want to think about it. The days of static sounds is probably coming to a fading away or only as layered support to alive voices.

Osmose doesn't change the landscape much on its own. It's just another implementation of the controllers with greater dimension than on/off in a new package.

3 years ago (or so) Yamaha participated in a MIDI 2.0 oriented event and demoed something on Montage and also an old Motif XF with sensors on the top of every key that provides a different take on this.

We haven't seen any product with this sort of thing but Yamaha was tinkering with it years ago.

Regardless, I think there will remain a strong market for conventional synths while enhanced controllers are 3rd party options.

It's really not until two vendors (out of Roland, Korg, Nord, maybe Kurzweil) implement novel keyboards (beyond poly after touch) that Yamaha would maybe "need" to answer with a comparable feature.