Buy an Yamaha Electone ELS-02C.

But does it have the flexibility to play all kinds of music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4kisO8LSIg

[quotePost id=121962]

Buy an Yamaha Electone ELS-02C.

But does it have the flexibility to play all kinds of music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4kisO8LSIg
[/quotePost]

That's up to the player! 🙂

Glanced through the manual again and it has Super Articulation 2 voices, too.

Kid can play rings around me... 😮

-- pj

Does that come with that player? Isn't it just a Genos with another manual and same technology AWM2, SA2 and pedals so 3? Is it MPE? We know Yamaha has a million samples of instruments and can expand the form factor into any size and shape but it's also not affordable. It's still not affordable although at least not $10K used. Obviously if you advertise with a perfect player a Casio will sound unbeatable. You could probably MIDI some Casios together and have her play those switching them between parts and it would sound almost as good. Most manufacturers have trumpet shakes and falls and bass parts and strings and arrangers handle the rhythm & chords etc. The CK is $999 so Yamaha did pull off an affordable stage board that isn't a PSR. I had a Genos but I'd have to play this to tell if it's any different. Funny it says compact portable. That means it's plastic mostly which is okay but it you went on tour with that it would eventually break. Those arrangers freak me out. Light as a Walmart toy and someone posted an internal photo that had an external power supply zip tied to the frame. OMG that's insane for a $6K board. It's fine for the home studio just doesn't feel right to toss around. You toss around a CK and drop it you're out $999 but the Genos or this thing you'll be out some serious $. The dang CP1 only does a few tricks and it weighs as much as a pony. I never could understand why the arrangers got the best voices. So a wedding singer guy with a Genos sounds better than a world tour guy with a Montage. Those worlds seem reversed to me. I know the types of sounds required are for different purposes but it's still somewhat odd. I'd like to know how many voices that board has. Yamaha constantly charged a fortune to expand the Genos using the expansion packs. I think all my expansions tallied up to more than the Genos cost. Yamaha does not want to provide many internal voices unless it's a Montage because competition forces them to remain competitive. Everything else you get what they decide you need. Roland gave many packs away for free on the Fantom. I assume that it takes a lot of memory and time to sample instruments then engineer a waveform without sample switching problems so without a better way to achieve that we have to pay for it literally. Still might be cost prohibitive for Yamaha to make an MPE using samples because that costs a lot of $. So Yamaha could offer a superior MPE Osmose version but you only get 50 voices and it would cost double. Then you'd have to pay to expand it. I'd probably still buy it but some might not be so lucky.

Also there's something about the way the electronic circuitry produces the completed sound and how it arrives coming thru the output jack. I compared the YC73 to the exact same CK voices and they aren't the same. Not sure what's happening internally but they do not come out the same thru the speakers. It's almost like having different voices with the same identical names. CK seems brighter and thinner so who knows but I always thought the Genos was thinner than the Montage. Who knows exactly until you play all of them side by side. It's hard to describe timbre or texture difference using words. I get the gut feeling the CK is less imposing somehow. If it were better sounding I'd probably sell my YC. There's some weird response differences in the keys themselves like CK is always at 128 even though it says 64 in comparison to the YC. Call it hotter like a microphone when it's too hot. Without playing this ELS there's no way to know. Since when has Yamaha made an "Electone"? I've never heard of it but seems to be in the arranger/organ classification. Someone said Yamaha doesn't fool with niches but this seems like one of those experiments. It's setup like an organ, appears/behaves like a Genos or PSR-ish so does it do synth stuff too? One of those triple dog dare you to make it bets. How many of these are they really going to sell? I couldn't find any reviews only demo videos from owners in houses. No professional reps. or presentations when I searched originally but might be some. All only Asian players too. What is the market for this product? I'm going to search for the data sheet. New from Yamaha on sale is $16,000. I found it. Around 1,000 AWM (not even AWM2 but I assumed that's included) and 94VA if you buy the custom version. Get this, the bench is included! It better be for that price. I do completely assume that these voices are the Genos and Tyros lines and expansion pack voices same as I already owned when I had one. Not sure where I will get $16K to try it out so I think never. Probably only a few extreme players will have these. I can buy a lot of other gear for that much.

Electone manual and feature description

https://asia-latinamerica-mea.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/8/803278/els02_en_om_d0.pdf

https://asia-latinamerica-mea.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/electone/els-02c/index.html

@david

Since when has Yamaha made an "Electone"? I've never heard of it ….

Since 1959
Obviously.

But if this equipment is one of there great flagship accomplishments and I've owned almost every Yamaha synth/board since the DX100 why have I still never heard of it? Since it might be classified as an organ I likely never cared to look at it. There is a point in there somewhere including until now I've never heard anyone even mention it by name. Guess it's so expensive nobody talks about it and it's not in this everyday market. Seems like it's still a Genos/Organ combination or hybrid creation. If it's $16 and you can't drive it regular people probably don't talk much about it. We stick to about $5K and less per unit. I do have over $23K worth of boards here but there's 8 of them. Not sure I'd trade all those flavors for one single system. Plus I can shuffle those 8 in and out, sell etc. and I'm not stuck with one or have to take a big loss on it. If a $1000 unit devalues 30% I still get $700. If a $16K unit devalues 30% I'm out $5K instantly but probably more because the odds someone will buy it used for any more than 50% is very high. Too risky. You could buy an SKpro or SkproX with a real rotary speaker and add pedals for a way better organ and then MIDI in a few other boards or arranger and do the same thing. Buying individual units each serves a much greater sized market thus the price is more reasonable based on the demand. The price on the Electron is probably outrageous because no one is buying them, not like a CK or even a Montage. Risk is too high and gain is too low.

These upper tier priced Yamaha's are sold in a very personable manner, kind of like a blend between how Evangelism and Encyclopaedias used to be sold, on steroids. Unless you've had an older relative in their target market, you're unlikely to have experienced it. Which is a pity, because it's stunningly concerted sales and promotions techniques that have to be seen to be believed.

If you build organs and pianos, you pretty much are dealing with a very wealthy clientele — throughout these instrument’s early history organs and acoustic pianos were really only for the very wealthy… sorry, if that’s not you… or most of us.

Organs (invented circa 300BC) were traditionally built with a cathedral or church surrounding it (literally, the building was built to house the instrument in many cases)… acoustic pianos (invented some two thousand years later, in the early 1700’s) had only the extremely wealthy castles and estates that had one.

It was not until more recent times (late 1800s-early 1900s) that “affordable” versions of these instruments even began to become available. Ignore the actual history at your own disadvantage. The Industrial Revolution made the manufacturing of these instruments even possible for the average person.

Whatever the equivalent of today’s pop/rock/r&b/jazz, etc, etc musician was back then, they were not jamming on pianos or organs. (Little known fact the accordion was the first “portable keyboard). It should NOT be difficult to understand that technological innovations are expensive (R&D costs) and invite high-end (expensive) instruments as the place where the technology is first implemented. Eventually, lower cost versions become available…

Yamaha Electones have introduced things like the Ribbon Portamento controller, polyphonic Aftertouch, Horizontal Touch (wiggle keys) to introduce modulation, and many other features you’d probably recognize… decades before they showed up in the more affordable/programmable synthesizers.

Like a (spoiled) child, you think ‘your favorite thing’ should be the prime focus for everything in the keyboard world. The “Why-can’t-I-have-everything” syndrome.

Recommended: Spend some time on the Internet listening to (learning about) Yamaha Electone, high end Arrangers and Clavinova instruments through YouTube performances — you’ll find Electones from the early 1990s (that will blow your mind) and you’ll probably recognize features that came under your radar decades later. You’ll see features, that if you truly have owned lots of Yamaha keyboards over the years, that have ‘trickled down’ from those extremely high-end instruments. If you know where to look you can see the innovations coming years ahead of them reaching affordability! But you’d need to know to look.

You don’t know…
You don’t (really) want to know…

It’s okay not to know, because one can learn, but one has to first admit that one doesn’t know.
It’s (really) not okay to think you know when you don’t
You’re one of those who doesn’t even know that they don’t know…

The only people screaming about finding a MONTAGE are those who owned and then sold theirs. (The forum here is for those who own an MONTAGE). Actually, the more you grumble, the more you are interested… so I guess they should thank you for your interest.

[quotePost id=121971]Someone said Yamaha doesn't fool with niches[/quotePost]I think you're referring to my earlier comment, "Yamaha doesn't typically pursue small niches" -- what I meant was, small niches that others are pursuing. Yamaha will pioneer stuff of their own, whose market value may be uncertain... but I think would be unlikely to follow someone else into something with a small or unproven market. Pouring resources into something new makes sense... sometimes you end up with a rarity (e.g. VL1), but sometimes you end up with a home run (e.g. DX7). But pouring resources into something with an unproven market, where someone else is already doing it? When you're a big company, it probably just makes sense to wait and see how they do.

But getting back to Electone, home organs was once a significant business even in the U.S. Today, the markets are elsewhere. But here in the U.S., you used to be able to walk into a "piano and organ" store and find a selection of home organs from companies like Baldwin and Wurlitzer, for example. Today, there's still an upscale home piano market, but not really a comparable organ market. But that's not necessarily the case everywhere.

[quotePost id=121985]If you build organs and pianos, you pretty much are dealing with a very wealthy clientele — throughout these instrument’s early history organs and acoustic pianos were really only for the very wealthy… sorry, if that’s not you… or most of us.
[/quotePost]

Spot on. And Andrew is right, some Yamaha products are sold through sales channels other than rock'n'roll retailers (for lack of better term). If I want to try a Bösendorfer, I don't go to Guitar Center... 😀

Another aspect, Yamaha sells into regions selectively. That's why you'll find Electone on the Japan site and not North America, for example. Same for Vocaloid. Use the Web; tour the world.

[quotePost id=121985]
Yamaha Electones have introduced things like the Ribbon Portamento controller, polyphonic Aftertouch, Horizontal Touch (wiggle keys) to introduce modulation, and many other features you’d probably recognize… decades before they showed up in the more affordable/programmable synthesizers.

Recommended: Spend some time on the Internet listening to (learning about) Yamaha Electone, high end Arrangers and Clavinova instruments through YouTube performances — you’ll find Electones from the early 1990s (that will blow your mind) and you’ll probably recognize features that came under your radar decades later. You’ll see features, that if you truly have owned lots of Yamaha keyboards over the years, that have ‘trickled down’ from those extremely high-end instruments. If you know where to look you can see the innovations coming years ahead of them reaching affordability! But you’d need to know to look.
[/quotePost]

Exactly. Once there is a business case, Yamaha's engineers will figure out a way to take the cost out of high-end tech and make it affordable. Often, it takes time for features to trickle down.

As a detached observer, I believe Yamaha's decision making is shaped by Japan's "Lost Decades". Not aware of the "Lost Decades"? Something else to look up!

There are two Yamahas: pre-Lost Decade Yamaha the risk taker, and post-Lost Decade Yamaha the conservative. The risk-taker invented a lot of those "legacy" technologies that people crave. The risk-taker could take chances in an expanding economy and roll out products on spec. The conservative demands solid business cases, i.e., money-making opportunities.

Hey, hey -- pj

Stagea shares a lot of features/tech with the arranger product line, putting everything into a two manual plus pedal board organ format. The ELS-02C is top o' the line with "C" standing for "Custom".

I mention the "C" model because it gathers a lot of crave-able tech into one instrument: expressive keybed, Super Articulation 2, VA/VL synthesis, and so forth. Further, the ELS-02C is available today, if you're willing to import one from a region where it is sold and have the jack to pay for it. Otherwise, buy a used VL70m, EX5, or whatever. They are built like tanks and still work today. (I've got my WX11, VL70m and AN200, going strong.)

MPE is just a means to an end -- expressive control. The advantage of Stagea or Osmose is the integration of expressive keybed and synthesis. Integrating pieces and parts using MPE ain't easy; I'm trying to climb this learning curve. I doubt if many will use Osmose successfully as an MPE controller because most people lack the technical knowledge and diligence; they don't (won't, can't) dive into MODX/Montage editing let alone MPE and the tweaking that's required.

Just a few thoughts -- pj

I believe Yamaha's decision making is shaped by Japan's "Lost Decades".

You won't be surprised to learn that more and more of my decision making is now being shaped by "Lost Decades"- LOL!

I do mostly focus on what's obtainable but I'm an engineer not a musician so not sure I totally care how everything came to be. I do care about what's currently available or coming available at an affordable price. 8 are better than 1 IMO. I don't need to know the history of an automobile to know which one I want. But it is interesting to get a history lesson. In the recesses of my brain I do recall Yamaha organs but just never looked at them because I don't play organ. This is not really an organ, looks like one but it's really an arranger or full accompaniment one man band. Yes the history of the organ proves that it was the first synth attempting to represent or replicate an orchestra. My mother had one and the brass, flutes etc. never sounded anything like a real acoustic instruments to me. Now they are the actual instruments because of sampling. The Organ has morphed into the real thing however the traditional organs are still popular even though you could opt for the real instrument voices. Ironic that now, instead of the organ replicating instruments it's actually an instrument unto itself. Reverse evolution. Now we use advanced technology to replicate old technology organs and/or to fit them into a tiny form factor from something that used to be enormous. I guess we're spoiled but yes if Yamaha can provide 1,000 AWM2 and VA and SA voices it'd be nice to have access without being wealthy. I suppose we'll all be dead before that happens else we have to refinance out houses. I actually owned almost all of them in the Genos but since I have no Genos I have none now even though I paid for them outright. Kind of feels like I gave that money away.

I have more of an interest in what a device can do and how it sounds far less than using it to perform like a musician because I only do it for personal entertainment. Guess I have no talent but I've supported the industry most of my life. Probably a rare amount of people actually do that so I'm an extremely miniscule portion of the market. I'm inquiring and obviously there's little demand for musical instruments anyway relative to the population. I think many guys my age are out hunting, fishing. camping, golfing etc. with their money whereas I buy keyboards. Also why I hate to wait for the next release. Some of us aren't going to live forever. Same as a pro can play a Casio like it's a million $ board many players use what they have and know it inside and out and keep using it and can make it work no matter what the limitations are. If you're good enough it really doesn't matter what you play on. My interest is on the technology side and how it works but if these were like smart phone they would play and do anything on voice commands. In comparison there's little demand for it. They release new guitars every year but a guitar is a guitar pretty much the same as it's always been. Trumpets the same. I used to buy many trumpets but essentially they are all very similar besides the appearance. Keyboards have a lot more opportunity to change and improve because there are so many features and UI options and sound engines etc. I think it's more fun than guitars and trumpets and for the novice fun is the name of the game. I used to go to this church and no offense but they waste gobs of money and some player there owned a Montage. He convinced the church to buy a Montage. Another player I know who uses it probably only plays 3 voices the whole service. Them spending that money on a Montage was the biggest waste when all they needed was a CP or now a CK88. He said he doesn't know 3% of what the Montage can do. That was the wrong solution for their need all because some guy who had one told them to buy it. I'm sure those 3 voices sound great but someone in need went without help because of some bad advice. They had some elaborate sound system installed with 16" woofers under the stage and I mean this is a tiny church. All in-ear system and mixing board there's no telling how much the the guy who pushed for all that is now gone for more money down the road. Don't get me started I had nothing to do with the heresy of religious entertainment. Nothing wrong with good music entertainment but when you spin it and make unprovable claims/promises and profit from it but then ignore members who have real needs I go literally insane. You can't really change it because someone else is in control and will shut you down or shut you up. We all need hope, love and acceptance but no one wants to help others anymore. The incentive to do so has been lost. I'll shut up now.