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'Simple' Control Assignment using a Foot Controller Pedal

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Colin
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Topic starter
 

Re @ Bad Mister:

I successfully worked through your 'Smooth it Over' example ..all ok & understood.

However, my performance is moving from a scene 1 (which has no drums/arps at all...i.e it's just some pianos and a pad....and therefore has no designated 'beat') to a scene 2 which is merely scene 1 + a drum arpeggio (beat of which is 3/4 (I think!...sorry-I'm not too hot on my beat knowledge!). So having no beat to work with in my scene 1, how does montage ascertain the so called 'end of measure' for this?

I don't think there is any overall 'performance beat setting' .....or is there??

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 1:09 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

my performance is moving from a scene 1 (which has no drums/arps at all...i.e it's just some pianos and a pad....and therefore has no designated 'beat') to a scene 2 which is merely scene 1 + a drum arpeggio (beat of which is 3/4 (I think!...sorry-I'm not too hot on my beat knowledge!). So having no beat to work with in my scene 1, how does montage ascertain the so called 'end of measure' for this?

I don't think there is any overall 'performance beat setting' .....or is there??

Of course, there is. Every Performance is stored with a TEMPO reference. And just like in a real world situation if the drummer (drum arpeggio) is not supposed to play in SCENE 1, you would have the drummer 'mentally' count time - so that they can come in at the correct time.

The way you do this with the technology is to assign a "Mute Arp" that will serve as a musical rest for the drummer.

It is quite disturbing that you don't know the beat (Time Signature) of your drum arpeggio... this is information that will be necessary.

In MONTAGE the Time Signature defaults to 4/4 - which means there are 4 Beats to each Measure and each Quarter Note gets 1 Beat.
If you change the Time Signature to 3/4 (you would do so by using an Arp that is recorded in 3/4 Time) - there are 3 Beats to each Measure and each Quarter Note gets 1 Beat.

If your Drum Arp is 3/4 Time you would insert the Arp named "Mute 3/4"
If your Drum Arp is 4/4 Time you would insert the Arp named "Mute 4/4"

These act as musical rests - the Drums simply will not play anything

If it is just two Scenes then you could use FC7 in heel down position to recall Scene 1, and toe down position to recall Scene 8. This you can easily navigate and since Scene 1 requires a CC value 0-15, and Scene 8 requires a CC value 112-127... the extremes can be accurately recalled with your foot...

This sounds like an option. Are you able to point me to either the manual section or an article which shows how to program this using the montage?

As to the use of CC# from a Foot Controller - that will only work when sending the CC messages into the MONTAGE via MIDI. [SCENE]selection on the MONTAGE is handled by the dedicated buttons.
The MONTAGE Controllers can generate the messages (which are sent OUT via MIDI) but you have to bounce them back to the MONTAGE so they arrive via MIDI IN - a MIDI Foot Controller, like the old Yamaha MFC10 could send CC# into the MONTAGE via MIDI... or a DAW can be used to send the CC messages THRU to the MONTAGE via MIDI
It is not a practical solution without using something external to communicate via MIDI

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 4:30 pm
Colin
Posts: 0
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Topic starter
 

or....you create/record and save your own ARP (during which you have the chance to select your required time signature)...that's right yes?

I don't think there is any overall 'performance beat setting' .....or is there?

Sorry..excuse my loose wording...I meant 'performance 'Time Signature' setting...not 'beat/tempo' setting which I DO obviously know all about!!.... you've cleared up that point for me now anyway.

I have now created the drum user ARP I wanted .... it was 2/4 actually...not 3/4.

Finally....Can you possibly clarify a bit more how I would assign this "Mute Arp" into only the first couple of beats of the scene?

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 6:50 pm
Jason
Posts: 7909
Illustrious Member
 

If you set scene 1 to change to an ARPeggio number that has, for its individual assignment, "Mute 2/4" as the arpeggio type (not your user arpeggio, not any other arpeggio name) - then this would be the arpeggio you would want to have triggered from the first time you press any key. Therefore your ARPeggio would run, in time, from the very beginning but not play any notes. This would address the question of having the "beat" activated before your first scene change.

Now 2/4 is going to put some pressure on your ability to change scenes before absolutely necessary (1.9 beats maximum to press the scene button before the top of the next measure vs. 3.9 beats if using 4/4). If you "rethink" the time signature - you may give yourself more time to setup the change by changing the arpeggio meter (Mute 2/4 would need to change to match too). This sort of depends on a lot of variables - and it may not be "possible" - although there ARE lots of options and one should have a semi-elastic relationship with the time signature when programming a synth as the implications of meter are slightly different in this programming arena than necessarily in the music itself and how it would be best represented in print.

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 10:23 pm
Colin
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

@Jason (or others):

Just to make sure we are 100% clear on the challenge here...the aim is to delay the start of my scene 2 drum ARP from starting until I have both moved from scene 1 over to scene 2 but also until I press the first note of my next measure.i.e at the moment, the scene 2 drum ARP is commencing too early...as soon as I press the scene 2 button. OK?

So...using the Mute 2/4 ARP, I assign that to say a single key (say C1) which I would press exactly when? ...end scene 1 or start of scene 2?

In terms of setting up this ARP correctly, can I check the EDIT - Common settings needed here

Arp Part - ON ?
Arp Master - ON ?
Hold - Sync-Off / Off or On ?
Change Timing - Measure ?
Loop - OFF or ON ?
Arp Play Only - ON ?

Presumably if the 2/4 doesn't fit right...I can then just try one of the other time sigs ..yes ?

Appreciate your feedback

 
Posted : 26/01/2022 3:35 pm
Jason
Posts: 7909
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I know what you want and using measure-synced arpeggios was an alternative given that's more inline with how arpeggios are meant to be used. The question was, assuming you learned how to "properly" use this feature, will this work for you? Instead of being synced to the first time you press a chord - it would be synced to the next measure (next beat 1 downbeat). So the setup here is instead of depending on a chord press - you have a "runway" of pressing a button up to an almost full measure before you need the pattern to change.

This is more of a question than an answer to the way you framed your question.

"I want to do XYZ"

"Have you considered, ABC - does that work for you?"

It's OK if the answer is no assuming you fully understand how to implement ABC (the alternative) and still it doesn't work.

If you use 2/4 timing for your ARPs then each measure is 2 beats. Pressing a scene button with measure (not realtime) arpeggio transitions will WAIT to change the arpeggio until the next beat 1 downbeat AFTER you press the scene button.

Say (as a thought experiment) you use arpeggios with time signatures of 6/4. This is 6 beats in a measure. By the definition above, you could be in scene 1 and hit the scene 2 button on the upbeat of beat 1 in a 6/4 measure. The next measure will be 5 and 1/2 beats later. So 5 and 1/2 beats later - the downbeat of the next measure - the arpeggios will change when set to "measure" timing.

And ... if this was more helpful to have more setup time (and if you knew "where" you were in a 6/4 measure) then 6/4 is like 3 2/4 measures glued together. This is part of the "elastic" comment I made. However, there are pitfalls of course when doing this.

 
Posted : 26/01/2022 3:52 pm
Colin
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

SO I DO want to give the ABC as shot before considering any further alternatives

You said 'measure' should be selected in the common settings but what about the other common settings I was seeking clarification on please?

Thanks

 
Posted : 26/01/2022 4:47 pm
Jason
Posts: 7909
Illustrious Member
 

Ok - thanks. Things are busy here today and was double-checking. Since I'm a bit "distracted" - I appreciate your patience at the moment. Let me review in a bit.

 
Posted : 26/01/2022 5:34 pm
Jason
Posts: 7909
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Arp Part - ON ?
Arp Master - ON ?
Hold - Sync-Off / Off or On ?
Change Timing - Measure ?
Loop - OFF or ON ?
Arp Play Only - ON ?

ARP Part = ON required for ARP
ARP Master = ON required for ARP
Hold = ON typical for drums to prevent needing to hold down a key to keep the ARP running
Change Timing = Measure - suggested to allow the ARP to change AFTER you change scenes as described previously
Loop = ON - suggested so the ARP repeats after it plays the last "note" (or drum key) of the arpeggio

ARP Play Only = X

I say "X" because this depends. If you've set ARP Part and ARP Master ON - and don't change these (with scenes or manually) - then ARP Play Only will not come into play. So it wouldn't matter if it was on or off. What this does is say if you turn OFF the ARP (as in turn off Part or Master ARP switches or both) - then ARP Play Only will be evaluated. If ARPs are OFF as described and ARP Play Only is ON then this means when you strike keys this Part will not make any sound because the setting is saying - only the Arpeggiator should be playing this Part no matter if the ARP is turned ON or OFF. When the ARP is OFF and ARP Play Only is ON - then this "locks out" your manual keys from playing the Part. When Arp Play Only is OFF - when the ARP is OFF then your manual key playing will manually play since this Part is not exclusively designated for ARP control.

 
Posted : 26/01/2022 7:24 pm
Antony
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
 

Going out on a limb (I could never find it)...

There is no parameter for specifying Time Signature for a Performance, EXCEPT when using Play/Rec to record a Song, MIDI Track or Pattern... either as a backing track, or to create User Arps.

The Time Signature is implied by whatever ARP you are using. Each ARPs Time Signature is found in the Data List Manual. Most are in 4/4, and 12/8 are largely swung 4/4's (so... 4/4 is specified). You'll need to do some Manual trawling.

There are a few "odd times" but not many.

A 2/4 is a 4/4 with heavy equal accents on 1st and 3rd beats... but now we're drifting into music theory. Suffice to say... 4/4 will fit your needs, you just need to choose a suitable Arp, or make your own.

 
Posted : 26/01/2022 8:40 pm
Jason
Posts: 7909
Illustrious Member
 

I'm not sure what will or won't work (for the OP specifically). If after the start of arpeggios running - you need the ARP to change exactly after 18 beats (nine 2/4 measures) - then 4/4 won't work which will allow for 16 beats or 20 beats as the closest "1" downbeat. And dealing with compound meters (the extra fiddling) may not be worth it to "align" beat 1 of 4/4 to be in phase with your 18 beat (or non-4beat-multiple). I take it the groove change or drum introduction needs to be at a specific time and it may not fall on 4/4 measure boundaries.

Your "limb" is the right kind of general thought one should have when I say to have an "elastic" relationship with meter. The meter you choose may not match the music - but may serve the purpose. There's some analysis one needs to do to map out the "whens" and "hows" and allow creativity to enter the solution.

 
Posted : 26/01/2022 10:54 pm
Antony
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
 

I can confirm there are no 2/4 Arps on the MODX except the "Mute_2/4". I presume its the same for Montage.

2/4 is a very unusual Time Signature these days, normally only heard in Marching Band Tunes or Military Regatta type music (Left, Right, Left, Right).

Reading through the posts I'm not convinced Colin is even sure what Time Signature he has in mind.

In theory you could take a 4/4 Arp (1 2 3 4) and turn it into a 2/4 (1 and 2 and) by using the Pattern Sequencer. This would require some significant editing, and not something I would particularly enjoy doing. It would be far simpler to create a User Arp straight off a 2/4 "Click".

Side note: if you ever care to listen to Pink Floyds "The Wall" album, their drummer Nick Mason very cleverly weaves in a 2/4 "feel" over some of the 4/4 Time Signatures (The 2/4 being thematic of the "Marching Hammers") ). Another Brick In the Wall Part 2 (the famous song) is one such instance.

@Colin... its probably a good time to start learning the Dark Art of Arpeggios... it should keep you busy for a few months. Start with 1 Part Basic, and build up gradually.

 
Posted : 27/01/2022 10:00 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

The decision that needs to be made is a music production decision - that can only be made by the performer.

I would not recommend a 2/4 SCENE if your goal is to use the SCENES 'like an arranger' -- where you have setup each SCENE as a musical section and wish to do the section recalls in real time.
That is one way you could approach using the PATTERN SCENEs. It is certainly not the only way. There are many different approaches. You have to determine if the SCENE is going to be used just once in the composition or is it like a VERSE which you return to several times. Popular song formats can be outlined by composers as AABA... Verse, Verse, Chorus, Verse... SCENE 1, SCENE 1, SCENE 2, SCENE 1 could be the outline for many pop songs -- 32 bar song structure. where each of the SCENEs is 8 measures in length.

You don't have to follow any traditional structures - I only mention it so you have an idea how it might typically be used.

SOLUTIONs:
First, you must decide (or tell those trying to help you) what your goal is. If it is, indeed, live performing using the SCENE buttons to manually change musical sections - then you may want to explore other methods of assembling your SCENEs.

If you want to play a keyboard sound within a SCENE and not have the drums start when you start playing - you can set this up several different ways.
I explained the MUTE ARP as a musical rest. It allows the instrument to "STANDBY" for the next instruction which will occur when you change SCENEs
If you use ARP = OFF as the Part assignment for the Drums in a SCENE, moving to the next SCENE will require that you Trigger the Drums - which means you must hit a specific NOTE within the ARP NOTE LIMIT range and ARP VELOCITY LIMIT range.

Say you want to play (what is called Rubato in music terms) -- this means you have an introduction you want to play freely on a piano sound... and at the end of the freestyle piano playing you want the drums (arp) to start... you can "hide" the Arp's 'trigger' event on the keyboard.

You could set the Drum Arp to play only when you hit a specific Key and a specific Velocity.
For example, say your freestyle piano intro ends with you hitting the highest Key or say C5, you could set the Drum Arp to start only when you pressed that specific key. You can even set a specific velocity... this allows you to play the keyboard normally (no drum arps) until you hit the MAGIC KEY at the MAGIC VELOCITY

Drum ARP NOTE LIMITS can generally use just a single Note Event to begin... Say you set the Arp NOTE LIMIT = C5-C5, VELOCITY LIMIT = 120-127.
Unless you hit that specific key in that specific velocity range, the Drums will simply wait for you to trigger the start.

You will find the MUTE ARP will most useful when you again want the Drums to Stop playing (take a musical REST) So you would set a SCENE where the MUTE ARP is used to tell the arpeggiated instruments to "Rest" - it means when you change again to another SCENE they can begin again WITHOUT you having to hit the hidden MAGIC KEY.

 
Posted : 27/01/2022 11:39 am
Jason
Posts: 7909
Illustrious Member
 

2/4 is common in latin music where there is not necessarily a way to refactor to 4/4. The musical phrases often do not fit the "more familiar" format, if you will, of phrases that are 16 beats (quarter notes, 4 measures in 4/4) or multiples thereof. 8 measures, 12 measures, etc. It's common to see seven 2/4 measures (14 beats, and 14 divided by 4 is 3.5 measures in 4/4 time) or similar where entire sections of the song do not align to a 4/4 grid.

My own charts even though the "feel" is 2/4 - I have a collection of charts (and now I'm talking sheet music - not the programming consideration) copied into a chart that's in 4/4 time. All of the sections fall on the 4/4 grid by happenstance and it makes the chart fit on a page better without the "extra" bar lines. That said - when I have a latin purist come in and read my book - this can really throw them off. So yes, there are times when you can "refactor" a time signature to 4/4 - and there are times you cannot. The description of the prevalence of 2/4 is a bit off considering styles outside of marches that use 2/4 -- and also may more typically not have even multiples of 2/4 measures per phrase or section.

When you pull these into the programming-your-synth world - there are implications. And it depends mainly on where the drums are meant to come in and if those "1" downbeats fall on even or odd multiples of a 2/4 meter.

Outside of latin there are multiple other examples - so I'm not attempting to pin down the OP's genre here.

 
Posted : 27/01/2022 7:41 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

2/4 measures are popular in all styles of music...you'd be amazed at how often it occurs in popular songs. It is used to turn the beat around (to use an old disco-era term) -- relevant here is that in PATTERN all measures within a SCENE must have the same Time Signature. You cannot have a 2/4 and 4/4 measures in the same Pattern Scene.

And certainly when using the PATTERN SCENE structure in "arranger type" real time performing, you would definitely want to avoid a single 2/4 measure - as it would be difficult to access and move to the next SCENE if it is a single measure of 2/4.

In fact, you might consider changing your workflow so that Fill-ins are not isolated as separate SCENES.

Reason: A one measure Fill-in SCENE requires that you press the SCENE button just before you want to recall the FILL, and then during that very measure you have to quickly hit the next SCENE button. (Unlike an arranger, there is no automatic target for your Fill-in). The SCENEs are really designed for transferring ARPEGGIO data to the Sequencer.

Of course, all music can be different so the examples outlined in the linked replies below are just typical use case examples:

This is all, of course, up to you. But here are your boundaries:
Each PATTERN SCENE (musical section) can be from 1 to 256 measures in LENGTH --- when you don't consider this fact, you miss out on some very interesting possibilities>
If the melody section of your composition is repeated each time (fixed format) and is, say a 32-measure form, AABA... You might consider creating SCENE 1 as the entire 32 measures complete with all the fill-ins and transitions in this one SCENE... then in SCENEs 2, 3, 4, 5, etc you can have each of the various individual musical sections as 8 measure SCENEs (7 measures + the 1 bar Fill) that you can work with when you are extending your composition on-the-fly.

I would certainly work so that each 8 measure SCENE already had the Fill-in as measure 8 - so that I did not have to do that thing where within one measures time I'm hitting SCENE Changes twice.

See this thread for more:
Link -- Drum Arpeggios
Link -- How to Create a Fill-in on MODX (applies to MONTAGE, as well).

 
Posted : 28/01/2022 12:10 pm
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