The Montage has a buffer holding a maximum of 16 parts. Think of this like a 2-drawer filing cabinet (metal, for storing documents).

8 parts fit in the upper drawer, 8 parts fit in the lower drawer.

If there is an empty drawer (meaning using only 8 parts in a performance) - then the PERFORMANCE will be placed in the empty drawer (open drawer, pop new performance which is 8 or less parts in that drawer, close the drawer). Since the original PERFORMANCE (up to 8 parts) is still in the non-empty drawer, you can keep the original performance sounds sustained while all of this is 2nd drawer open/fill/close is happening since the occupied drawer ("old" performance) is not touched.

The filing cabinet is metal, so you can stick a refrigerator magnet to the front of either drawer to mark it as "new". Something like this "New York" magnet.

There is only one of these magnets - so you have to move this single magnet from one drawer to another (cannot have two magnets). This is to visualize what's going on.

When the new PERFORMANCE (up to 8 parts) are placed into the previously empty drawer, the refrigerator magnet is moved to that previously empty drawer - so it marks the drawer with the new parts most recently added.

If you want to switch to a 3rd performance (again, must be 8 or less parts) - then you find the drawer WITHOUT the "New York" refrigerator magnet and empty it out (oldest performance gets ejected) and stuff into this drawer the new PERFORMANCE (1-8 parts). Then, the refrigerator magnet is moved to this drawer that previously did not have the magnet - since it is now the drawer with the newest PERFORMANCE.

So you see that if either both drawers are filled with the same performance (you start with a PERFORMANCE of greater than 8 PARTS) - then you have to throw out everything in both drawers to fit a new performance into a drawer. Montage is not going to decide which half of a PERFORMANCE with more than 8 parts is important to you - so the filing cabinet is emptied. Likewise, if you want to "load in" a PERFORMANCE with more than 8 parts, then these parts must occupy both drawers and therefore both drawers must be ejected to fit in the new PERFORMANCE (greater than 8 PARTS).

Overall, we could call this a "memory swapping" policy.

SSS can only work when you are able to leave one of the two drawers alone.

When the Montage is making the sounds - either using MIDI as an input to control the piano keys or using the physical piano keys themselves does not make a difference with respect to SSS. Because neither MIDI nor playing the keyboard keys changes how much memory is dedicated to PARTS and how that memory is swapped.

As defined, there's nothing wrong with SSS. Given what I understand about the architecture, I do not see a way to make a 16-part PERFORMANCE keep playing when you load any number of performances "on top". Montage cannot effectively manage which parts to get rid of in order to fit your new PARTS (since there are only 16 total slots).

Also, if starting with 8 or less parts and wanting to swap-in 16 PARTS - since there are only 16 slots for PARTS - if you load a PERFORMANCE with 16 PARTS - then all the current PARTS need to be ejected to fit the new PERFORMANCE.

I guess an easier way to visualize this is to think of a ceiling fan with two light bulb sockets.

You have a red light bulb and a white light bulb sitting on a table and the ceiling fan has no light bulbs in the socket.

Stick the white bulb in and turn the light switch on - you see the room light up white.

Stick the red bulb in - and as long as the switch stays on - you still have the white light even when you add the red.

Want a green light? Well, you unscrew the white light (has to be the "oldest" bulb) and add the green light where the white light was.

What if you have a special light that's a blacklight and this blacklight must screw into both sockets at the same time? Well, if we define "SSS" as "one light bulb can stay on while you change another bulb" - then "SSS" is broken when we have to screw in this blacklight since it takes both sockets and you have to unscrew both light bulbs and the room goes dark until you screw in the blacklight.

Say you start with the blacklight which takes up both sockets at the same time. You have to unscrew the whole thing - again the room goes dark (breaks "SSS") until you plug in either a red bulb or white bulb.

White bulb = PERFORMANCE with 8 or less PARTS
Red bulb = PERFORMANCE with 8 or less PARTS
Green bulb = PERFORMANCE with 8 or less PARTS
Blacklight = PERFORMANCE with 9-16 PARTS

No refrigerator magnet here to keep track of which bulb is the oldest - so you'll have to use dust accumulation or write down which was the newest bulb screwed in.

Thanks! So i tried with just 2 internals and 2 midi channels turned channels 15 and 16 and SSS doesnt work. The icon SSS does not come on if you enable any part from 9-16 it seems. Could this be a bug?

I should have said "8 consecutive parts starting from part 1" instead of 8 parts.

The logic does not count the total number of parts, but looks to see if you have any parts used in 9-16 to determine if you're using "more than 8 parts". "More than 8 parts" in my past message should read "any parts higher, in part number, than part 8".

My analogies, as far as filing cabinet # and socket number, refer to internal designations. There is an internal circular buffer where the new content can switch to a different drawer. One drawer (or socket) or the other does not map to any fixed range of parts.

The part rules are using parts 1-8 (determined as valid for SSS) or using parts higher than 1-8 (not valid for SSS).

Oh so in this case as long as i move those 2 midi channels enabled within the 8 first parts i should be ok. Ill try that! Thanks Jason!!!

Hi Jason,
So, as designed, once I kept all performances within parts1-8... SSS is engaged and switching between performances/livesets works like a charm!!!

Here's the new glitch 🙂 As noted above in my setup, the MOXF6 is the master keyboard driving the montage live sets...and by using the new capabilities in the latest OS 1.20, we can now send MSB/LSB/PC to switch the Montage's LiveSets..... but when I do that... SSS does not work. Sound is cut-off between the same LiveSets/Performances that have SSS engaged. BTW, i send those MSB/LSB commands on midi channel 1.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Hi both Vince & Jason, Apologies for hijacking this thread but I wondered if Jason would possibly consider (equipment permitting) creating a couple of Youtube videos demonstrating synthesis (AWM2 engine) on the Montage. I would certainly be interested to see your work flow Jason.

Thanks

@Vince:

It is difficult for me to test that specific feature. In other threads, I've mentioned some limitations when it comes to recreating MIDI setups of other users as I have a limited set of equipment to do so. I have, however, tested manually switching Livesets using the touchscreen and have gone between one Liveset PERFORMANCE to another and SSS did work. Due to the design, and keeping with the previous analogies, SSS will only work through one switch. If you are holding a first PERFORMANCE's chord down, switch to a second PERFORMANCE - the original sound will keep playing (SSS). If you are still holding down the same chord and switch to a 3rd PERFORMANCE, then since the 1st PERFORMANCE is the oldest - it will be replaced and your sound will cut off.

I'm not sure if sending the MIDI message to switch live sets is different than using the touchscreen. I'm not sure of why it would be. It should act the same as switching between the two PERFORMANCES as if you were doing the touchscreen method as well.

There are limitations to SSS when you are using a PERFORMANCE with motion sequence/arps/etc. I haven't nailed down what is lost - but have mentioned in a previous thread that since some PERFORMANCES do not continue to play in-tact (the "motion" part stops during a switch) that they should lose the "SSS" emblem. Note: the core sound does not stop (there is still a sound carried over, so it does not "cut off" completely). Since we have 16 parts, you can see how the filing cabinet works for those. But there is only one setup for superknob and the motion sequence - so these things will get replaced by the new PERFORMANCE and affect the original PERFORMANCE which is still being held (SSS). For my own edification, it's important to someday dig more into this and clearly define the "is"/"is not" of "SSS" - but I have not been motivated to do so yet from my own usage. For now, just imagine anything that is not at the part level will be uprooted (master FX, superknob settings, etc). So if the PERFORMANCE being SSS depends on these, expect a different kind of sound after the switch.

@Tyron:

Thanks for the interest. I do not have plans on making videos although I do recognize that at least screen shots would help. I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for since "demonstrating

... AWM2 engine" equates out to about 67% of the features of Montage. Since I see Montage as two engines (1/3+1/3) tied together by the motion sequence/superknob automation/MIDI/the mixer/etc (last 1/3). Maybe start a new thread with some more specific questions.

Thanks Jason! Yes, SSS is engaged in these performances/livesets and SSS works when using touchscreen and buttons. Only when midi is used to switch liveSets does SSS fail (even with SSS icon engaged). I would like to bring this up for a possible OS update/fix... Can you let me know how to do this and who to engage?
Thanks!

I'm just a keyboard player who happens to have mostly Yamaha products. So I have no inside scoop on a better channel than this forum to report perceived bugs.

I'm not ready to blame Montage on this one yet, since it would be worthwhile to look at ("sniff") the MIDI stream coming out of the MOXF and make sure it is doing what you expect it to do.

http://www.musicrepo.com/testing-midi-device/

I just picked the first relevant link, not necessarily the best link. But advice on a PC to use MIDI-Ox or SNOIZE on Mac seems reasonable. I haven't tested either or seen if they are compatible with the MIDI drivers provided by the MOXF.

Searching for Midi-OX and the MOXF I wasn't able to find a great "how to".

I do, however, feel it would be worthwhile to see what exactly the MOXF is sending and "see" if there is anything else in the MIDI stream that could be explaining why SSS is not working.

EDIT: I did download MIDI-Ox and tried it to "sniff" what was happening using the Montage and the USB drivers I've installed for it. Works like a charm, no fuss. Just had to go into the settings (Options -> MIDI Devices ...) and add all the "Montage" related items (for MIDI inputs and outputs, hilight all the "Montage" inputs and outputs).

For you, this would be MOXF - but I see the general process works out-of-the-box without having to do anything fancy with the drivers.

Here's a portion of what was produced on the "Monitor - Input" window:

000105D5 1 -- 90 3C 0D 1 C 4 Note On
0001060C 1 -- 90 40 16 1 E 4 Note On
0001060E 1 -- 90 46 18 1 Bb 4 Note On
00010617 1 -- 90 43 22 1 G 4 Note On
0001064C 1 -- FE -- -- -- --- Active Sensing
00010746 1 -- FE -- -- -- --- Active Sensing
00010781 1 -- 90 3C 00 1 C 4 Note Off
00010782 1 -- 90 46 00 1 Bb 4 Note Off
0001078E 1 -- 90 43 00 1 G 4 Note Off
00010799 1 -- 90 40 00 1 E 4 Note Off

Thanks Jason again for your reply! I am unclear though what this would do? Are you saying that if I sniff it and can show what is coming down that we might be able to pinpoint something that shouldn't be coming down to the montage from the moxf?

I have on midi channel 1 MSB/LSB/PC 62/00/01 to set to liveSet #1 and 62/00/02 to switch to liveSet #2.
then i do have midi channel 7 and 8 sending notes in order to engage the montage's channel 7/8 as I previously noted I wanted to do.

But I can try to download the software to sniff.

The purpose for this is to make sure the controller is sending what you expect and no more or no less.

There are other ways to attack the problem - and someone with a MOXF or more experience with that board could chime in with a more direct approach.

The sniffer (MIDI input monitor) should capture everything your MOXF is sending when you push whatever buttons on it to send the 62/00/01 message on channel 1. You're going to expect to see the 62 00 01 and 62 00 02 messages without other MIDI traffic that may be problematic.

Note, it would be best to turn all the filters OFF except for perhaps System Realtime -> F8 (Timing Clock) and FE (Active Sensing). These two can be filtered. Under filter check "Apply Filter to Input Monitor Too" so the Monitor Input will filter these out.

UPDATE:

When I setup the Montage to do basically what the MOXF should be setup to do, I captured the following using MIDI-OX:

[code type=markup]TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT[/code]
[code type=markup]005D4563 1 -- B0 00 3E 1 --- CC: Bank MSB[/code]
[code type=markup]005D4563 1 -- B0 20 00 1 --- CC: Bank LSB[/code]
[code type=markup]005D4563 1 -- C0 00 -- 1 --- PC: Acc. Grand Piano
[/code]

The 1st column as timestamp should be ignored. I'm guessing if the Montage received this (and >=1.10 firmware) that it would be the same as pressing the touchscreen.

Note that the yamaha keyboard interface makes PC as 1-based (first program starting at 1) while, over the MIDI "wire", this is represented as a "0". That's why you see the data field after 0xC0 as 0x00 above and not "1". On Montage, I put "001" as the "MIDI Pgm Num". This is why you see BM warning that your keyboard may represent a "0" as a "1". It (Montage and probably MOXF) translates zero-based into 1-based for this setting.

Excuse the formatting - not sure how to make a newline while using the forum and retain fixed width font.

Thanks Jason! I'll see what I can find. Would be nice though if others chimed in with their experience on controlling the Montage from an external device (other keyboard or iPad) to switch livesets and to see if they also ran into same problem. If so, then maybe BadMister can help push this to Yamaha or just bring it up to them to see if they might have any insights to the possibility that there is a problem with SSS and changing liveSets via MSB/LSB/PC commands.

Thanks in advance to anyone who might be able to test and/or provide insight/feedback!

I haven't looked at any MIDI output from Montage until now - but I would say that adopting some set of tools to see what is going on over the MIDI 'wire" would be useful for not only this issue you're having, but also future needs. It's not required, but nice to be able to shed a light on what's going on between two devices.

Note that in this case, I'm advocating just hooking up the MOXF to your PC and not hooking the Montage up to anything. This is just to see what the MOXF is sending as if the PC is the Montage receiving the MIDI commands. Just wanted to be clear because "sniffing" usually implies looking at something with a tool while two other (not the sniffer) devices are communicating. In this case, it's really just instrumenting the output of MOXF and nothing to do with what the Montage may or may not do in response.

FYI: Montage allows you to turn off volume and panning information during a bank/program change. I turned that off when I captured the above Montage output since I did not want anything "extra". Not sure if the MOXF has a similar set of controls.

There is lots of information for the MOXF here: https://www.yamahasynth.com/resources/understanding-the-master-mode/382-understanding-the-master-mode

And I do see there is a way to transmit 4 Bank/Pgm changes at once. If the Montage "sees" all 4 (I think it should be setup to only monitor a single channel, and other 3 Bank/Pgm changes should go out different channels) - then this could be the problem. The MIDI-OX program (or other one for Mac) is meant to flush this kind of thing out.

Yes you are right. The moxf can transmit on 4 zones in mastermode. Thats the mode I am in. So i only setup 1 zone to send msb/lsb/pc commands and that is midi channel 1. The other 3 have msb/lsb transmit set to off. But of course i am sending note off note on once i strike the moxf keybed to get the montage to sound. So I still feel I am doing basic stuff for a live rig. Ill try to collect the data from moxf without montage connected as you suggested. Thanks!