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Sync for MS/Arp

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 Axel
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Hello,

next question: For Motion Sequences (and also Arps) there is a parameter Sync. What is the difference between the values „Tempo“ and „Beat“?

Or more precisely, what means „Beat“? The reference manual just says „… is synchronised with the beat“. I guess it is somehow related to external input, but is it really described somewhere?

Thanks,
Axel

PS: Testing didn’t provide any insight, there is no difference between both values, probably as „Beat“ is the same as performance‘s tempo in case there is no external input?

 
Posted : 04/08/2023 4:14 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Short answer: “Beat” will auto-correct so you always “look good”, as in, on the beat

Please see this post with downloadable example illustrating the difference:
https://yamahasynth.com/forum/motion-sequence-sync-tempo-vs-beat#reply-111555

 
Posted : 04/08/2023 5:44 pm
 Axel
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Topic starter
 

Thanks, perfect!

(Still have to learn to search within the forum before posting questions.;) )

 
Posted : 04/08/2023 5:57 pm
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Eminent Member
 

Beat/Tempo for arps? Did I miss this parameter for arps? I cannot find beat/tempo for them. For me switching on a hybrid-arp with scenes causes cruel synch-problems if not pressed the right millisecond. Two possibilities:
1. Hold the key and pressing the scene button in the right millisecond. If not right, the MS on the next scene is shifted 180 degrees. Very nice special effect.
2. Lift the finger, switch the scene and finger down in the right millisecond. If not, the arp causes scratching-noise.

Not to talk about the latencies to be calculated. Sync is a very, very, very tricky thing with this machine. So far "Sync" is my finger; not made for milliseconds 😉

 
Posted : 04/08/2023 11:15 pm
Posts: 773
Prominent Member
 

I cannot find beat/tempo for them. For me switching on a hybrid-arp with scenes causes cruel synch-problems if not pressed the right millisecond.

Maybe you haven't set the 'Change Timing' parameter for your arps properly.

See page 83 of the reference doc

Change Timing
Determines the actual timing at which the Arpeggio type is switched when you select another type during
Arpeggio playback. When set to “Real-time,” the Arpeggio type is switched immediately. When set to
“Measure,” the Arpeggio type is switched at the top of the next measure.
Settings: Real-time, Measure

Each scene has a MEMORY switch for 'Arp' so you can select the arp (1-8) for that scene. When you change scenes the next scene can use a different arp.

But the 'Change Timing' parameter will determine whether the new arp will start immediately or will not start until the start of the next measure.

How do you have your scenes configured?
What memory switches do you have ON?
Are you using different Arps in different scenes?
Have you set the Change Timing parameter for each of our arps?

 
Posted : 05/08/2023 12:19 am
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

You can make it easier to get the timing right by giving yourself a longer window before the intended arp change. However, there is no way to absolve yourself from having the responsibility of triggering the instrument at the appropriate time. This responsibility is intrinsic to arpeggios.

 
Posted : 05/08/2023 3:24 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

The sound I am talking about:
- the same in 3 parts in 3 scenes, 2 parts muted, one active, according to the scene
- first scene, naked
- second scene, with arp ("MA_Hybrid7")
- third scene, with this arp and MS lane (on highcut filter cutoff)

@Andrew
Are you sure, that "Changing Time" makes a difference with this arp? I am a very experimental person. How about doing it yourself? Use this arp. Then play around with measure/real time. Try out to worsen your timing ... that's the "experiment" for "Changing Time". Like in physics, "experiments" are the judges of a theory:D Difference? Functions? Synchron/Asynchron?

If your experiment shows clear and proper results, then my MODX is broken.

If you like, you can also make this experiment for the 1st point above. Timing via scene-button-pressing. But for the whole experiment you would also need a MS lane.

[quotePost id=122782]You can make it easier to get the timing right by giving yourself a longer window before the intended arp change. However, there is no way to absolve yourself from having the responsibility of triggering the instrument at the appropriate time. This responsibility is intrinsic to arpeggios.[/quotePost]

"Window"? Do you mean the point, that one hand must be free and reach out to switch? No problem. I play this way since over 40 years. The MODX/Montage is not made for this comfort. It's like playing a pipe-organ ... reaching out 1 meter to change the register. Depending on the organ, the pipe-organ-professionals have an extra person to do this job Meanwhile I can manage this on the MODX alone *lol

Yes! Intrinsic! Clear answer *thumb up

Unfortunately I am not a professional and there are also some physical reasons, why my timing is not allways perfect.

At least with controller-arps the timing is difficult. I don't know them for a well behaviour 😉
Unfortunately those arps are the coolest ones ... yet. Because "milliseconds" are too intrinsic for me, I am working on workarounds. I created one effect by MS lane. THEN you can synchronize with beat/tempo. Or building normal arps, which also behave as exspected.

The answer on my original question is given? No tempo/beat at arps? I think so.

 
Posted : 05/08/2023 11:54 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Beat/Tempo for arps? Did I miss this parameter for arps? I cannot find beat/tempo for them. For me switching on a hybrid-arp with scenes causes cruel synch-problems if not pressed the right millisecond. Two possibilities:
1. Hold the key and pressing the scene button in the right millisecond. If not right, the MS on the next scene is shifted 180 degrees. Very nice special effect.
2. Lift the finger, switch the scene and finger down in the right millisecond. If not, the arp causes scratching-noise.

The answer to the original question was how the Motion Sequencer Phrase can run at its own Speed or you have options to have it run referencing the Performance’s Tempo. That Phrase can be started by pressing a Key or by sync’ing the MS start to an Arpeggio (which will start when you touch a designated Key - matching Note Range and Velocity Range).
Arpeggios play music phrases that start on a Key press - it can be in time or out of time based on *you* as musician. If music is already playing, *you* must press your Key ‘in time’. It’s music… the question of falling on the beat is discussed below:

Arpeggio vs Style
An Arpeggio, as found in the MONTAGE/MODX/MODX+, while similar to a Style (in an accompaniment keyboard) differs in that, a Style always attempts to make the performer “look good”. By that I mean, as long as you feed the chord/note-on events prior to the downbeat, it will ALWAYS wait until the next designated Beat to begin the phrase. As you’ll see you get a bit more flexibility with Arps… you can set it so that it waits until the next Beat.

Arpeggios can be started prior to the beat, on the beat, or even after the beat… the placement of the Key press/Note-on determines precisely where the phrase begins. If you desire to start the Arp Phrase at the next Measure line…
_ Here are the Conditions: the Phrase “Change Timing” = Measure, but additionally you want to set your “wiggle-room”. By that I mean, the amount of time or room prior to that Measure change line for you to input your controlling chord/note data.

In order to make Arpeggio performing easier, Yamaha has implemented “Arp Sync Quantize Value” parameter — this quantizes the *Start* of the Phrase (not the data in the Phrase) just where the phrase is to begin.

This setting determines how far prior to the downBeat you will be able to input the Note-on data for analysis. In other words, if you set the “Arp Sync Quantize Value” = 120 clocks (16th Note) placing your control chord within a 16th note of the downbeat will auto-correct the start of the phrase to that next downBeat. It will dutifully wait until the downbeat and start the Arp Phrase precisely on time.

Hint on setting Sync Quantize Value:
A 16th note is plenty for most musicians with a fairly good sense of time. This means as long as you input data within a 16th of the Beat, the Arp phrase will wait until the down beat to start the Phrase.
You can set “Arp Sync Quantize” = 480 clocks (a Quarter Note) if you have terrible timing or you are dealing with break-neck Bebop tempos…

This is how Arpeggio Phrases can be flexible enough to be started on any beat or anywhere off the beat, and yet have settings that allow it to behave like an accompaniment Style engine, which always tries to make the player “look good” by waiting for the nearest *next* beat. With Arps you get the best of both worlds… start anywhere or program it to wait and auto-sync to the next beat.

Extra Credit Facts: Running at the right Tempo does not mean you are in Beat.
Arps always run at the Tempo, but you, as the musician must “play” the Arp by “playing” a Key to input the controlling instructions.
In order for Arps to run on the Beat, you must either hit it exactly on the beat, or use the technology (Arp Sync Quantize) to help you place your control Key(s) so they start the phrase on the next Measure line.

Think of the “Arp Sync Quantize Value” as auto-correction when working with/performing with Arpeggiators.

When your Motion Sequence is linked to an Arpeggio Part (ie, the MS is set so “Sync Part” is set to an Arp’d Part) it becomes very intuitive to change a [SCENE] and have both the musical phrase of the Arpeggio and the parameter change phrases of the Motion Sequence coordinated to your measure lines.

Not to talk about the latencies to be calculated. Sync is a very, very, very tricky thing with this machine. So far "Sync" is my finger; not made for milliseconds 😉

Now that you possibly understand it, you’ll see this does rate a reply. Any latencies are musician induced and assumed, on purpose! 🙂

(I don’t know any musicians who work in milliseconds, or deal in such time divisions).

 
Posted : 06/08/2023 4:11 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

I would like to answer, but "Sorry, but the system detected your content as spam" *rofl

 
Posted : 06/08/2023 7:02 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

By window, I mean you can give yourself hardly any time to get it right - where the arpeggio changes immediately after pressing a trigger key or it can be delayed up to a measure. Using measure timing at 120bpm and a 4/4 time signature, that's up to 2 seconds (2,000 milliseconds).

If you press the trigger key right after a measure starts (like the and of 1 or sooner even) then there will be nearly a full measure before the arpeggiator changes. Using measure timing widens the window. You can also adjust tempo, time multiply, and time signature to give you longer than a measure while still maintaining the same effective tempo. By this, I mean if you have a time signature of 2/4 and play two quarter notes at 120bpm then you can refactor this into 2/4 but use 8th notes (which could be done with unit multiply or changing your arp itself) at 60bpm. You would now have the same phrase repeated twice at the same effective tempo as the original so the change would give you 2 measures or up to 4 seconds to trigger (before the actual downbeat of 1 after 2 measures).

I've never had to do this sort of thing to get arpeggio timing right - but I do typically use measure timing because it gives me a full measure (anywhere in that measure) to hit the trigger note and then the arpeggio will change after a delay that it quantized with the next measure. That said, if you need a longer runway then you can do some extra work to get it (and widen the window).

 
Posted : 07/08/2023 1:16 am
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

@Jason

Normal arps are not a problem. "Measure", "Realtime" ... everything fine. For my "bad days" I use realtime; and forget about latencies 😉
I have problems with those controller-arps. I would rename them to "out-of-control arps" 😀 ... in their internal sequence and the timing. Their behaviour is far above my understanding.

If...
- I miss the timing by some milliseconds, it stays asynchronous til the last day.
- I'm getting mad and trigger it wildly asynchronous, it sloooooooowly synchronizes after some measures over a scnhronous but shifted (internal) sequence to its original (internal) sequence ... or not ... game of luck 😉
- I change their internal sequence by (randomly) triggering to achieve a shifted (but synchronous) sequence, it stays.

ALLWAYS the same adjustment: "Measure".

I guess, that is one of those "famous" moments, noone here knows, what I am talking about. Shall I produce a YT video? 😀 😀 😀

"Milliseconds" are a standard physical unit. I don't measure them. I only know that those arps are very, very critical for my personal timing. Depends on my daily form. In this one and only song I trigger such an arp in the middle of the song, my chances are 70:30 (felt).
"You were weighed on the scales and found to be too light." (Book "Daniel", Ch. 5) 😀 😀 😀

The issue noone lost a word here: a second "strange" effect in this case is, that the MS sequence is shifted 180°, if I don't hit the right arp-point.
Condition: 3 parts - 1st naked - 2nd with this arp - 3rd with a MS lane. I toggle between those parts by scenes.
Once again: missing the timing in scene 2 (part 2 active) causes a 180° shift of the MS lane in scene 3 (part 3 active).

Why does the MS lane care about a part, which is is not assigned to?
Because I don't claim to know all theoretical treatises and the superior logic behind all those effects, I siwtched Motion Control -> Motion Seq -> Part SW "off" for 1 & 2. By any reasons Lane 1 was "on". In my simple mind I thought that switching off the parts would be sufficient. NOPE! It surely has an intented sense, that MS seemingly is still listening like big brother. I also switched off lane 1 in those parts ... and I guess that this functions.

I have one song, where I use this "misbehaviour" to change the internal sequence of the arp to my liking. Before I play this song I trigger the arp a few times, until it plays in the (internal) sequence I like 😉 That I look like an Monkey on a keyboard ... I don't care.

I don't like them. If not used to such things since decades it is a tough job to get through this machine. And I seriously doubt that many people are intendingly using such refinements. DAW, DAW, DAW. Actually no need to make things more complicated than needed ... imho.

 
Posted : 10/09/2023 2:53 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

Why does the MS lane care about a part, which is is not assigned to?

It's a little difficult to put the pieces together to get a clear picture of your setup and issue. However, I can say that there's no way - other than using arpeggio timing for MS - to limit the piano keys that trigger MS. Non-arpeggio motion sequences will trigger with any key on the keyboard. There is not a way (other than using arppegio timing) to limit the trigger to a range in the keyboard. Say Part 1 has a keyboard range of C3-G3 (8 chromatic notes) - then still the MS will trigger with any note from the lowest to highest keys (C-2 through G8). The note limits you assign to the part do not apply to the MS.

The reason why arpeggio timing can limit by keys is because there's a chain a reaction. The arpeggio is triggered which triggers MS. Because arpeggios themselves have rules which include trigger keys (arpeggio note limits) - you can use this in order to keyboard range limit starting a motion sequence by leveraging arpeggio timing. I use this all the time because I often want an MS to be limited by key.

So my answer to your above question depends fairly heavily on my interpretation that you're trying to "switch off" a Part say with scenes and am wondering why that Part is still triggering MS. And the answer to that could be a wrong assumption about what keys can trigger motion sequence for a given Part.

As a side note, since I frequently have motion sequences that I want to limit by note range I had previously asked (before Ideascale I believe) for a way to limit note range for motion sequence. The system has a way to limit velocity and I thought it was inconsistent for a feature that closely resembles arpeggios/sequences to not have a note limit. In every instance now I just use arpeggio timing for MS but still feel it would be more straight forward to have a note limit and allow this to work for any timing setting.

 
Posted : 10/09/2023 4:39 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

@Jason

Okay, okay, thank you. I don't really understand well, what you are talking about:D I never thought about keyrange, when using MS. On & Off ... that's all I expect. If possible On, when it's needed 😉 While I am reading your explanations ... sounds reasonable ... perhaps I should, but I don't use it much. 3 times until now:
1. as a workaround for my beloved darlings ... one of those unnecessary controller-arps, that doesn't function the way I want it (a story, I can write a book about)
2. for a cutoff-gimmick
3. and a few weeks ago for a fade out.

I sometimes played a bit with this LFO-feature. As an organ player I love vibratos 😀 But only a few days ago I discovered how much one can do with this ... all those parameters ... cool. Perhaps my next trial to workaround some of those "out of control"-arps 😀

"Motion Sequence" and its parameters is imho a pretty ... hm ... "tricky strange" thing. But anyway... a different discourse.

I believe ... "believe", because I never trust this Yamaha machine ... that I found the issue here. I think, that MS triggers in the background, allthough it is "off" in Part SW. A behaviour, I don't understand. But I hear Yamaha-people shout at once: "this is intended, because ... and very usefull!!!". I like those sentences *rofl

My issue?... why does the MS lane shift 180° after my inaccurate playing? ... solved
As I wrote: to limit the Lane to the exact! part I want it to act, one will have to deactivate this Lane in all other parts. NOT by Part Sw, but also with the button "Lane 1" (or whatever the number is). Otherwise it plays and hides in the background, in order to surprise you, when it comes out.... my conclusion. Since I killed all the green buttons, it allways starts correctly.

What is the lesson? If you want to deactivate something, make sure, to kill all green buttons around you can find 😀
The contrary with "Scenes" ... there activate everything, no matter if needed or not.

How it shifts 180° because of my inaccuracy in scene 2, I still can neither physically (silent in background) nor mentally retrace for sure. Because "Lane 1" was "on" in the first scene also, it should have started then. Only possibility I could imagine: "Key on Reset" ... "1st on". Perhaps "1st on" in every scene; not global. This is not explained somewhere. Could be, because I trigger scene 3 while holding a key... correct, in advance and allways synchronous. With much "in advance" I can hear, that MS is already running in scene 2.
Nevertheless there is another nice "special effect": I call it "hiccup". Very popular at this machine. "Hiccups" whenever you switch any button on while playing ... scenes ... Arp on/off ... hiccup, hiccup, hiccup. I needed much practice to find the right spot, when changing to this MS-scene ... if not ... "crack-noise", hiccup.

If an arranger would do this... I don't know modern ones. Perhaps they also do 😀

You wrote about "ideascale"!? *big laughter
Do you really take this serious?
When comes the next level for MODX? This century? *rofl
I don't expect anything ... MODX is dead ... long live the "+".

 
Posted : 10/09/2023 7:31 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

I don't have my keyboard plugged in, so I can't go check this out - but I don't believe MS triggers if it is turned off at the part level.

Something that threw me intially is that if you have the MS Lane assigned to a destination parameter - meaning the Part (even one with the Part MS turned off) is using MS Lane as a controller source to offset some parameter ... then turning off MS for the Part does not cause the MS Lane to stop offsetting the destination parameter.

What happens is that the MS Lane will be set to a reset position. Depending on the curve you have which takes the MS Lane position and translates it to an offset - the reset position of the MS Lane may be offsetting some parameter.

This is why it is important to know what the reset value is for MS Lane (for the source controller) and also make the rest of your programming do the right thing at this reset position (meaning offset the amount you want - including 0).

A unipolar MS Lane will default to an input value of 0. A bipolar MS Lane will default to an input value of 64.

This may not be what's throwing you off, but it's my first guess. A mismatch between a logical thought of how it should work (I've been down that rabbit hole before) and then how it actually does operate.

It's not simple or very intuitive. It takes some practice using features with persistence in order to come to grips with motion sequences.

 
Posted : 10/09/2023 8:43 pm
Posts: 773
Prominent Member
 

A unipolar MS Lane will default to an input value of 0. A bipolar MS Lane will default to an input value of 64.

I believe the input value will always be 0 (far left of the curve's X axis) but the output/offset value (the Y axis) may be different depending on the curve and the uni/bi setting.

turning off MS for the Part does not cause the MS Lane to stop offsetting the destination parameter.

What happens is that the MS Lane will be set to a reset position. Depending on the curve you have which takes the MS Lane position and translates it to an offset - the reset position of the MS Lane may be offsetting some parameter.

Correct - it will do that even if the Master MS switch is OFF. Went through that with Bad Mister some time ago when I was trying to figure out how to STOP a sequence after it was going.

For others, here is a simple example that illustrates what Jason said:

1. INIT NORMAL (AWM2)
2. Edit part 1
3. go to Mod Control / Control Assign
4. select MS LANE 1 as the source
5. select Part Volume as the destination
6. play middle C and note the volume
7. select Bi for polarity
8. play middle C and note the REDUCED volume

As Jason explained the 'RESET' input value is 0 at the left side of the curve.

For the default standard curve, which uses uni polarity, the Y value (the height) is also 0 so there is no offset.

But for the bi polarity the leftmost Y value is BELOW 0 which produces a negative offset to the volume.

Changing the curve while you hold down Middle C shows this effect rather dramatically. The change in volume will follow the leftmost curve value up and down as the curve changes.

Having an MS lane assigned to a destination can cause an effect even if the MS itself isn't even being used.

This is just one, of many, anomalies that are caused by leftover, unused garbage in the preset performances.

Recommended practice is to 'cleanse' a preset performance to remove things that aren't used and/or aren't needed and then save a CLEAN version to use for future baselines when creating and customizing your own performances.

As far as I know there is no way to remove unused things from a part or performance except manually. I don't know if even the John Melas tools are capable of that.

 
Posted : 10/09/2023 9:37 pm
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