Tom wrote:

First let me say
What an Ego!!! Who R U to tell us? You are Happy? Then stay out of it. Other wise. You are just a Troll!
Second. The Kronos. Still way outsells the Montage. For 2 main Factual reasons.
MIDI And Karma.
And If we had proper Standard MIDI. Then we could have Karma. Like is offered for the Motif.
Ignoring a Industry standard. Was a Total mistake. For Montage.
And Then the Montage. Would Outsell the Kronos. (Fans in a keyboard! WTF.).
Then we get to a problem that. Only exists in the Montage. And Has been complained about. Since The Montage was released.
And. That Is the Scene Change. Not holding Notes until next key press. (Every keyboard I know of. does this correctly.)
We Have very valid Complaints. There should Have been a disclaimer. About the Midi Being Non-Standard.
(I am in fact. Thinking of Taking action Just on this one Item. There is already case History About MIDI. Being Non standard in My state.)
You are 90% happy. I am Maybe 50%-60% happy. These shortcomings. Affect me. And had I known. I Never would have bought one.
Even though. I think. On the surface. It is One of the best Keyboards ever made.(But that's the Problem. On The Surface.).
And Yes 2.0 was a Major update. But Should have been there in the first place.
The Montage. Was Rushed to market. And put this Tech in a Motif Xx. And nobody would have Bought a Montage.
Why would you. Just for the SN? Nope. So that is why it was Rushed to market.

Thank you for your comment. every opinion counts ofcourse. I tried to read between the dots and caps - I think I understood most of it. Hopefully you're not too grumpy next to your MONTAGE, don't hit it too hard 😉

Chris wrote:

It really makes me laugh reading these type of post at the stupidity of people who spend thousands of pounds on something and then complain that it doesn't do what they want. Why not have the common sense (maybe that's what you have missing) to fully research the various synths on the market and if you decide to buy one then live with it, not run it down and say that another brand does things better. Would you go out and spend £20k on a petrol engine car and then whinge on a forum that you can't charge it from the mains because it doesn't run on batteries like another manufacturers electric car, unlikely but then again maybe some of you would 🙂 .
You have bought what it is so why not enjoy what it can do and not moan about what it can't.

My thoughts exactly. Thanks.

double post

Chris wrote:

It really makes me laugh reading these type of post at the stupidity of people who spend thousands of pounds on something and then complain that it doesn't do what they want. Why not have the common sense (maybe that's what you have missing) to fully research the various synths on the market and if you decide to buy one then live with it, not run it down and say that another brand does things better. Would you go out and spend £20k on a petrol engine car and then whinge on a forum that you can't charge it from the mains because it doesn't run on batteries like another manufacturers electric car, unlikely but then again maybe some of you would 🙂 .
You have bought what it is so why not enjoy what it can do and not moan about what it can't.

But Chris you can not by way of a firmware update change a petrol car into a petrol electric car...... so there are still opportunities for improvements which historically we have seen and I'm not sure your condersending tone is constructive in any way even if there are few feathers flying around (I feel sure it will cool in time) so I still stand by my request with many who sit from a positive and generally happy Montage position...BUT a 3rd option with in the midi mode as I have approached previously in this thread as other have before me seems like good old common sense to me considering the inside of a complex keyboard rig, Having this 3rd option perhaps (Multi+ mode) would be most helpful for so many...remember this would be a 3rd options to complement the other two midi modes, not a fixed position when understanding the argument why Yamaha may feel this could restrict the ethos that montage is.... importantly having that useful flexibility as described earlier is still very much needed for many even if this means robbing Peter to pay Paul to do so... a 3rd "Multi+" mode would be most helpful indeed.

Except. You can not research the Montage Fully before You buy it(now You can.) But a lot of these subjects.
Were not available to a new prospective buyer. Because The search function on this forum Is Absurd!
But now the defects. are on other Forums.
And Try to test out the Midi in a store!. They will avoid letting You. Too much work for them. They never have a Midi cable around.
And in My State. Ohio. If it has In/out/thru. That is factual cause. To Assume Standard midi.(Unless there is a MIDI Disclaimer.).
5 cases have been won against 1 company here. Just for that reason. No Disclaimer!
And Eyal
You seem to be out here 24/7 at the moment. U Have nothing better to do I guess than cause a stir.
Only a true Jerk is A Grammar police person.
And Yes I do get angry at Trolls. All I can call you.
Because. U Have no horse in this race. So you have no business. Starting this post.
Just board and have no creativity.
And No one can win a argument. With a stupid Person. They just have Too much practice at it.
so I am done.

Tom wrote:

Except. You can not research the Montage Fully before You buy it(now You can.) But a lot of these subjects.
Were not available to a new prospective buyer. Because The search function on this forum Is Absurd!
But now the defects. are on other Forums.
And Try to test out the Midi in a store!. They will avoid letting You. Too much work for them. They never have a Midi cable around.
And in My State. Ohio. If it has In/out/thru. That is factual cause. To Assume Standard midi.(Unless there is a MIDI Disclaimer.).
5 cases have been won against 1 company here. Just for that reason. No Disclaimer!
And Eyal
You seem to be out here 24/7 at the moment. U Have nothing better to do I guess than cause a stir.
Only a true Jerk is A Grammar police person.
And Yes I do get angry at Trolls. All I can call you.
Because. U Have no horse in this race. So you have no business. Starting this post.
Just board and have no creativity.

sure, I have no creativity. I'm a lame ass bastard troll with no life, no work, no wife, no kids. only MONTAGE and this forum. if that makes you feel better 🙂 anyhow I'm long days at work and have many forums open. that's what.
guess its hard for you to know that Yamaha will also see some posts from users who are content with the unit.

regarding MIDI issues you mention- I didn't speak about it in my post.

what I do think, is that chances are slim to non, to make the MONTAGE a workstation or have a "new engine" inside it. (although I wouldn't mind having features which I don't use). so people get it extremely hard having the truth in the face.

but if Yamaha would've asked me, what I rather have, workstation features or 100% XF import - I'd take the latter.

and I think Yamaha deserves some positivity and from many posts lately in this forum it sounds like the MONTAGE is mostly wrong, where I think its mostly right.
love that MONTAGE. call me a fanboy or whatever, I feel like posting this here. and this is perfectly the right place to do so (I don't care if it drives you crazy).

come on, sell the thing already. get a Kronos and use midi and Karma, as you wrote above. 😉
All the best to you. Thanks for commenting.

btw - just so you know, Yamaha implemented in OS 2.0 the most asked for feature for the Montage in the past two years in this forum after "workstation".

Its a shame good old diplomacy with in these discussions can not hold water but unfortunately human behaviour Room 101 always dampens the day...my montage is a keeper for me and any improvment that yamaha may consider are always welcome...make Music Not War my fellow keyboardist...and all the best to you all.

I like the Tin Man!

FWIW The Kurzweil Forte 7 ( which I own ) can load 3.3 GB into non-volatile flash. I am very happy with my Forte 7 and my Montage 6! I am looking forward to the 2.0. OS update.

Tom wrote:

Except. You can not research the Montage Fully before You buy it(now You can.) But a lot of these subjects.
Were not available to a new prospective buyer. Because The search function on this forum Is Absurd!

There is lots of "stuff" flying around here. Let me lead with a disclaimer - my goal here is to be helpful - I hope you take no offense to the following. I understand sometimes people are busy and do not avail themselves to all responses -- you may have missed it.

Regarding search, I did give a primer of how to search yamahasynth in an effective manner. Google indexes this site very quickly. It is hardly any overhead to use google to search the forum. Please refer to my previous message in response to your earlier issue with search:

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/arps-and-the-montage#reply-26401

To quote the majority of it:

I agree that searching for information on the site is not great since the search engine often fails. So I do not use it -- almost ever. Instead, go to a search engine of your choice (I use google) -- and search there. With google, I type:

site:yamahasynth.com SEARCH_TERMS

Where "SEARCH_TERMS" is usually my ID ("jason") if I'm looking for my own post -- or someone else's name/ID -- or both -- and some other terms like "montage" and "arp" and/or "arpeggio" if looking for that. yamahasynth is well indexed on google - so that works much better than what I've found the forum's search doing.

I (and others) have implicitly asked for sticky topics before.

https://yamahasynth.com/forum/montage-anything-but-lean#reply-12781

September 25 2016, 01:59 AM
I agree there is room for improvement on the website optimization. The lack of "sticky" topics which stay up at the top - such as Yamaha firmware announcement threads - makes things a bit more difficult to find through Yamahasynth.com

I do not see sticky topics coming anytime soon - so I would suggest using a 3rd party search engine and collect together links in a personal "notebook" (text file) -- or even create a message full of links to all the other references if you want to make a sort of pseudo-sticky. If I made one - then I could search for (from a search engine) "site:yamahasynth.com jason arp sticky" -- assuming I named the title of the post "Arp Sticky".

For a different topic - here's a message with a bunch of links (not updated for a while) I made - https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/request-training-video-for-montage

It was easy to find searching for "site:yamahasynth.com jason video" - it was the 1st search hit for me.

It would be great for the search feature here to work better - until (if ever) that's fixed, I highly recommend using an off-site search engine.

Of course - without "stickys" or a forum "faq" -- it's difficult to learn this in the first place - so I understand that issue for the general user. For yourself, you do have the benefit of my previous response to help. I do hope I've helped you search the forum.

============

Pivoting (different topic) - but still @Tom. I'm having a difficult time sorting through your MIDI implementation feedback. From my own look at Montage MIDI using "sniffer" tools - I haven't seen any violations. I'm not saying the claims are not true - it would help to perhaps open a new thread only on MIDI implementation and detail your points. There are several in this category:

You have to do Everything on Channel 1

I'm assuming you mean the CC or Sysex for non-standard functions such as superknob and the global (common) assignable knobs. Not "everything" has to be on Channel 1 while in MIDI mode = multi. In MIDI mode=single I believe "everything" applies - but follows your assigned receive channel which doesn't have to be Ch.1. Regardless - this is your "big ticket" item - so it would be good to provide some detail on the issue.

And then your "smaller" MIDI issues ...

An Idea Here. Give the SN only 6.

This is difficult to decipher. I understand "SN" = Superknob. I'm not sure what "give [...] only 6" means. Does that mean set Superknob to MIDI channel 6? I'm unclear what you are saying here and would like to understand your feedback.

And Make the First 10 Channels of Midi. Standard.
[...]
That would Mean 10 channels of Performances. Had to Be Standard midi. IE: Like Drums. Always on Channel 10.

This one I do understand. Your vantage point comes from convention, not standard. MIDI is the underlying protocol. On top of MIDI is a convention called "General MIDI". "General MIDI" is a very simple implementation of MIDI where each PC# (1-128, which looks on the sniffer like 0-127) is mapped to a specific sound. Also MIDI channel 10 is dedicated to drums and each key has a specific mapping to a fixed type of drum sound.

You'll be happy to learn that Montage supports General MIDI when you load the correct performance preset. You can place any of the GM drum kits in PART 10 which maps to MIDI channel 10. I do not have the keyboard in front of me to see if the Init/GM performance already places one of the GM drum kits in channel 10.

Since this is an old standard which is limited - the approach Montage took fits better within the modern paradigm. Offer a super-set of sounds and more flexibility than the GM standard (more sounds and you can place drums in any channel 1-16 you choose). If you want GM - you can load up a performance to give you that backwards compatibility.

Hope that helps.

Hi Chris Classic,

I just wanted to say that was a well-worded post.

To the person who said FM-X in the Montage is much more capable than the FM in the FS1R, I apologize, but I had to laugh at that and I disagree. In fact, the number of algorithms between the two devices is the same, so in that regard, they are similar, but the Montage does not have 16 operators like the FS1R, making the FS1R, in my opinion much more fun with the ability to "sing" or speak. Granted, for whatever reason, Yamaha never marketed or came out with software to create your own "words" and phrases- there were 3rd party companies who came out with some very cool computer software that allows the user to do that, and it works quite well. The lack of software from Yamaha (USA and/or Japan) probably ended up being a legal issue and killed sales on what could have been a very good selling product. Instead, it died a quiet death until years later when people started discovering what that 1 space rack unit could really do, resulting in the cult-like status it has now along with the crazy used prices found on eBay.

I will add my two cents worth and say that Yamaha USA and Yamaha Japan, while both are "Yamaha" there have been many times when Yamaha USA listens and passes on what we (in the USA) say, want, or suggest to Yamaha Japan.

That being said, Yamaha USA can only do so much- Yamaha Japan has the final say. Sometimes things get lost in translation, sometimes Y Japan wouldn't believe what Y USA was saying (before the internet and forums like this one), and sometimes Y Japan could not or would not be able to implement some of the requests the folks in the USA wanted for technical or legal reasons (maybe even because they were already working on a new product that had those features).

I recall working with one musical manufacturer that spilled the beans on a new feature and that feature that was "supposed" to be added in software never got officially added to the OS. At least one end-user (customer) bought the instrument based on the upcoming new feature that never materialized. A legal battle ensued and while it was mutually worked out, EVERYONE took note, and no longer talked about new features until they were ABSOLUTELY sure they could be implemented, or were very close to being released.

Yamaha in general, has had a long history of doing things the way Yamaha wants to do them- sometimes they "win" and a new technology or standard becomes viable, and other times they "lose" and their new standard was not adopted as they had hoped. There are also many reasons for that. These days, probably mostly legal. If MIDI were introduced by Yamaha as a new standard today, there are many companies that wouldn't adopt it. We ALL were very fortunate in 1983 that manufacturers (thank you Roland, Sequential Circuits, Korg,Yamaha & others) could agree on a standard we all take for granted today. Today, the legal departments and marketing departments would never allow for a standard like MIDI to be adopted. It's a different world.

On a final note, I also am to blame for attacking or shooting the messenger at times. The good people at Yamaha all work very hard to do the best they can, and they (rightly so) take pride in the work they do. Sometimes these good folks in the USA have to put lipstick on a pig, sometimes they have to tow the company line, and like all of us, and sometimes they just simply don't get their way. The folks here in the USA don't have the authority & luxury of saying "I don't like that price" or "I don't like that feature" without putting their career in jeopardy. We (as consumers) have that luxury. So, for the times I have lashed out at the hard-working people who support us, and truly want to help us, I apologize for whining like a baby. I do get it 🙂

Steve wrote:
To the person who said FM-X in the Montage is much more capable than the FM in the FS1R, I apologize, but I had to laugh at that and I disagree. In fact, the number of algorithms between the two devices is the same, so in that regard, they are similar, but the Montage does not have 16 operators like the FS1R, making the FS1R, in my opinion much more fun with the ability to "sing" or speak. Granted, for whatever reason, Yamaha never marketed or came out with software to create your own "words" and phrases- there were 3rd party companies who came out with some very cool computer software that allows the user to do that, and it works quite well. The lack of software from Yamaha (USA and/or Japan) probably ended up being a legal issue and killed sales on what could have been a very good selling product. Instead, it died a quiet death until years later when people started discovering what that 1 space rack unit could really do, resulting in the cult-like status it has now along with the crazy used prices found on eBay.

I played with FS1R for years.

The Montage, with its stunning audio circuitry makes FS1R sound like a dusty old record player to me.

Not saying you can't make the best sounding music with a dusty old record player or an FS1R. Music is impartial to specifics like that.

The Montage, with its chaotic potential of smoothly morphing (and cross-morphing) in real time between different sonic states (100+ parameters at once...) puts a beast at your fingertips that people around the world will be taming for many many years. Believe me, the stuff you've heard Montage do so far is aimed at a traditional market and it is a tiny microcosm of the potential for sound design and synthesis and sonic exploration that Montage offers.

For synthesiser enthusiasts out there not sure if it's worth it, it is worth it!

Montage provides a montage of possibilities.

I like the overarching spirit of this post (Yamaha appreciation) so I’d like to add my own thoughts to it for what it’s worth.

First of all, one thing 100% clear is that Montage is unparalleled. Say what you want, but in the end, there’s no other current synth offering that has this almost insane amount of interconnectedness with a bend towards performance. Every member on this forum will either move on or pass on before they really plumb the depths of what is possible on this board. It sits in the center of my studio for good reason. But with that, comes nearly impossible to satisfy expectations.

Second of all, from a customer-company relationship (and for as big and diverse as Yamaha is) I have observed one thing very clearly: their customer facing faces are incredibly talented and smart people. Bad Mister, Blake, Don, Burt, etc. are all top tier talent not just in musical ability but in character, compassion and uniqueness. If Yamaha hires and pays these people, they’ve already proven they understand talent. What’s left is a matter of continually steering the ship with it. Though it is worth mentioning, Jason is probably the unparalleled cerebrum of the forum. I wish all forums had a Jason to speak so deftly with both science and courtesy.

So all said and done, I saw the reviews. I read the specs. I voted with my dollars and I bought the Montage to join the many others in my studio including the latest flagships from many of their competitors. I revere it as my center, my favorite, and everything from its sound to - yes - the SuperKnob - speak to me on a deeply creative level. As much time as I can afford goes into becoming a passionate Montage operator because I just know its an iceberg and I see glimmers of its potential in every sitting.

That’s the best I can do for an honest and well deserved appreciation. If you did nothing else, yes it’s still worth it. Thank you Yamaha for that. Please keep taking risks (that you get criticized for) because every flame and troll means you did something different that moves us forward and a decision made that sharpens a point while whittling away.

From a very isolated and (hopefully not so unique) perspective, I represent a studio sound-designer and for all my love for it, I’ve found some surprising difficulties with the Montage and that’s likely where my type of requests and criticism originate.

Montage bills itself as a “performance” synthesizer. Truly, as a desert island synthesizer for purely talented keyboard players, it has nearly no faults. What I have found is if I focus my workflow on it as a performance player, I (even more) want a way to sequence midi in it so the parts and Arps I cannot attend to bend to my will and not one of the stock ones pre-designed for me. So if standalone performance is Montages’ forte then the basic sequencing abilities found in even my dirty-cheapest synthesizer (Roland boutiques?) should be basically available. I literally don’t own and can’t name a synth that doesn’t have at least a basic sequencer so that kneecaps the pure stand-alone performance aspect for a lot of us.

If you assail Yamaha on the front of missing some important requisites for being a truly stand-alone piece of kit, they will morph into “we expect you to a use a computer with it” which is down the DAW/Studio path. So the identity problem is the mixed message of “performance, but you’ll need a DAW” - and that is such a strange one. I have Ableton and Push 2 and know them well. I have, in recent times, continued to abandoned in-the-box design because (what I perceive to be Yamaha’s calling) I am a musician, a performer. I don’t want to play Excel Spreadsheet with my music. That has led me to migrate out of the box and into hardware (onboard sequencers, Elektron Digitakt, Akai MPC Live, etc. at the moment). And so I analyze Montage from the perspective of a DAW-less performer. And that’s what leads me to discover you can’t change which Montage parts respond to which MIDI channels. This too is basic functionality on every other multi-timbral synth I own.

So Montage has both become my most beloved master controller and studio brain because of its potential and yet the most obtuse to integegrate into a workflow because I must either A) place it into multichannel and perform gymnastics to try to sequence it with external hardware if multiple parts fall under SuperKnob control or B) place it into single channel and relegate it to a single-timbral synth that cannot control other gear in the studio or have other gear in the studio control it differently.

So that is the origin of my (and it seems others) complaints. We’re not sure exactly who the audience it is other than desert-islanders (aka. Cruise ship gig musicians) because the very simple and obvious features lacking seem to be crippling to the rest of us.

But again, aside from that - Montage and its professional support are an amazing invention I look forward to interacting with every day.

By the way, Sample Robot is - most definitely - a huge win for people like me (once delivered). One option for me is to bring all of my external gear into Montage by way of Samples and turn Montage into an entire studio internally. I have done it with a number of patches on a number of synths and 1) the results are amazing when multisampled across pitch and velocity and 2) its tedious as hell to do. Sample Robot speaks directly to this. Thank you for that and it may be the single most important announcement from NAMM for weirdos like me.

Aaron wrote:

First of all, one thing 100% clear is that Montage is unparalleled. Say what you want, but in the end, there’s no other current synth offering that has this almost insane amount of interconnectedness with a bend towards performance. Every member on this forum will either move on or pass on before they really plumb the depths of what is possible on this board.

I believe I just posted along that sentiment! 🙂

Aaron wrote:
From a very isolated and (hopefully not so unique) perspective, I represent a studio sound-designer and for all my love for it, I’ve found some surprising difficulties with the Montage and that’s likely where my type of requests and criticism originate.

Hence workflow feature requests etc, with a grain of salt.

Aaron wrote:
By the way, Sample Robot is - most definitely - a huge win for people like me (once delivered). One option for me is to bring all of my external gear into Montage by way of Samples and turn Montage into an entire studio internally. I have done it with a number of patches on a number of synths and 1) the results are amazing when multisampled across pitch and velocity and 2) its tedious as hell to do. Sample Robot speaks directly to this. Thank you for that and it may be the single most important announcement from NAMM for weirdos like me.

Me too.