Synth Forum

Notifications
Clear all

Turn Me Loose

8 Posts
3 Users
0 Likes
2,745 Views
Posts: 0
New Member
Topic starter
 

On both my S70XS and my SY77 I was able to change the tuning by 1/2 step increments in real time (think of Loverboy's Turn Me Loose intro). However, as of yet, I have not been able to figure out how to do this with Montage. I was thinking it was going to be something as simple as assigning pitch to a controller. I hope I'm using my musical terms correctly... when I assign pitch to a knob I get a portamento effect rather than a legato. I want to be able to hold a chord and change it's pitch by half-step "increments" and not slide. Maybe the solution involves the arpeggiator. Has this been addressed in a previous post? Thanks.

 
Posted : 26/05/2019 2:47 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

I hope I'm using my musical terms correctly...

Sorry, your description is confusing... since we know both the SY77 and the S70 XS very well, please tell us how you did this on either one of those and we’ll tell you how to do it on the MONTAGE.

 
Posted : 26/05/2019 6:43 pm
Jason
Posts: 7913
Illustrious Member
 

There isn't a controller you can assign to increment by steps. Pitch, as you have gathered, is a parameter which increments in micro-tuning amounts - not my semi-tone.

Since the scale is generally tempered, there's not a way to make the "pitch" parameter increment by semi-tone (1/2 step) increments and match what would happen as if playing a half step higher. Furthermore, "pitch" as a destination stretches the AWM2 sample (if using sampled sounds) and so it will be different than playing the physical 1/2 step above in this regard as well. The closest you can approach to having a "controller" (button or knob) adjust the pitch by half-step increments is to use the transpose buttons located on the keyboard's control surface. They double as octave buttons as well. The [SHIFT] button is used in combination to determine the function.

Another more difficult option would be - if only one PART needs to shift - is to first traverse to the PART's pitch menu, select the "Note Shift" parameter, and use the [INC]/[DEC] buttons or DATA DIAL to adjust the note shift.

 
Posted : 27/05/2019 9:09 pm
Posts: 0
New Member
Topic starter
 

Thank you Phil and Jason for your quick response. In response to your reply, I was able to do this on the S70XS by assigning the transpose function to the Assign 1 or Assign 2 knobs. I no longer have the keyboard but it worked perfectly. I must have been able to define the range also as I could easily duplicate the 2 octave transpose in 1/2 step increments over 2 measures as heard on Turn Me Loose by simply turning the knob while holding the chord. On the SY77, however, it was not as exact. I was able to assign transpose to a slider. The range was not definable and so I had to be careful not to overshoot the 2 octave range.

 
Posted : 28/05/2019 2:16 am
Jason
Posts: 7913
Illustrious Member
 

The assignable knobs in Montage (AWM2) only have "pitch" available which is going to be a slightly detuned 1/2 step (or more) approximation. You can get something ballparkish - but will suffer from some form of "chipmunk-ing" (sample stretch) and won't be "dead on" for all notes of the scale due to adjustments that would need to be made (and cannot) for a tempered scale. But if those limitations are OK - you can use "Pitch" as the destination and work with user curves to dial in a few steps.

 
Posted : 28/05/2019 11:51 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Perhaps your memory is faulty or (no one told you that you were frightfully out-of-tune). lol

First, Transpose was not Assignable to the AsgnKnobs, you were assigning most likely Coarse Tuning... the increments of Coarse Tuning are not semitones... 16 units equals about an octave.

Transpose, Note Shift, Coarse Tuning are similar in the result but definitely different in their definition and execution.

Transposing the Keyboard is done as follows:
Press [UTILITY] > “Settings” > “Sound” > Set Keyboard Transpose as necessary to offset what the Keyboard is transmitting.

On this same screen (top) you can offset what the Tone Generator receives. “Note Shift” changes what the synth sounds.

Both shift the sound by precise semitones increments.
The Keyboard Transpose is global, it also affects what goes Out via MIDI.
The Tone Generator Note Shift is local to the internal sounds only.

You can increment the Keyboard Transpose, by semitones, by holding [SHIFT] + [OCT-/+]... the screen will give you a read out of how many semitones you are transposed.
The Tone Generator, being local, can be incremented by semitones on a per Part basis — Note Shift is a Part parameter.

Coarse Tune: Attempting to assign a physical Controller like a Knob to control tuning, which is what you are doing, is not a musically precise thing - it is used for bending chores, like scoops, drop-offs, etc. If you understand that samples get their pitch from how fast they are played back, then you begin to see the limitation of this form of pitch shifting. The original pitch is fixed to a Key, to play it an octave higher you could play the audio twice as fast, to play it down an octave play it half as fast. If you want to play it a semitone higher you would need to speed up playback back 1/12, you need to play a full step higher you need to speed up playback 2/12. There is no help from the technology to find exactly these 12th increment steps to make a chromatic scale. Because there are multiple samples across the range of an emulated instrument... bending the pitch to achieve transposition is NOT an efficient method. But is effective for certain quick gestures of pitch change -x but the longer you remain listening to stretched audio the worse it starts to ‘smell’... in other words in brief doses it is fine but Pitch Bend something an octave by speeding up playback and you’ll start hearing the quality loss. (It’s mainly the fixed frequency components that now give it away).

A more efficient digital recording is available, in most cases, used at the target pitch shift... if you want to shift the pitch down a musical fifth, if you use Coarse tuning/Pitch Bend you are stretching the playback of the original to tune it.... in all likelihood a different audio recording, better suited to recreating that Note is available if you simply trigger that key or if you use a method that does not stretch the time of playback to achieve pitch change.

The better way to get that pitch from the Key you are pressing is to use the Keyboard Transpose, or the Tone Generator Note Shift... and expressly NOT the Coarse Tuning or Pitch Bend which (clearly) have a different purpose.

When you assign “Coarse Tune” to a controller it is more about musical movement of pitch, more than it is about a precise transposition. It’s more aimed at a quick pitch bending gesture, and not a capo-like transposition.

Trying to use it like that you will discover that the increment values are not musically Equal Temperament semitones. +/-16 will give you a functional octave of movement - but this is very much like pitch bend, you're stretching playback time. On close inspection the sound quality changes the farther you stretch it. While it works great for a quick musical bending effect, but it is not recommended for extended play!

If you insist on using the Coarse Tune/Pitch Bend as a keyshifting tool, just recognize the increment values are not tuned to semitones, at all.

When you highlight the “Note Shift” parameter and assign a controller you will notice you are actually “Coarse tuning” the result. This is used best for momentary pitch changes.
If you want to actually increment in Semitones do so by pressing the [INC/YES] button while highlighting that parameter.... If your goal is change the result of the musical Key, you must increment the Transpose (Keyboard) or increment the Note Shift

 
Posted : 28/05/2019 5:43 pm
Posts: 0
New Member
Topic starter
 

Haha... there is no doubt my memory is faulty... severe case of CRS (can't member %$#t). I am disappointed that I will not be able to mimic the note shift on the Montage that the S70XS was capable of doing. I will continue to explore and find a work-around to it. I have historically been a "snorkeler", a phrase you used in your N Stuff Music review videos for Montage. More recently, I have been diligently hitting the manuals, YouTube tutorial videos and other reference material to become a "scuba diver". Mariana Trench here I come 😮 .

 
Posted : 29/05/2019 4:39 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Maybe I’m not making myself clear. The S70 XS handles Note Shift and Transpose the same as the MONTAGE.
So if you can remember what you were doing in the S70 XS, just do the same thing here.

 
Posted : 30/05/2019 9:51 pm
Share:

© 2024 Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.    Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us