We disagree. Your way is NOT "tthe only way"... there is no one-way to work. I'm asking you to try a different way.

I think once you see/understand how it works, you will come up with a suitable solution for your goal. But you have been using different numbered slots to address your external device from one Performance to the next. My recommendation is if your goal is to control an external device with the Montage, that you dedicate a specific Montage Performance slot to always address that external device.

Reason:
Makes it much easier for you to "know" for sure what is happening with your external device. To check, recall any Performance, (setup previously, or not) and you will be able to view exactly what is going on currently in your external device.

Please read again... it is the best way I can state it. Using a specific slot to always address your external device, means that in any Performance you call up, whether or not you previously stored something for the external device, you will be able to check on what is occurring in your external device. Depending on what it was last told to do will still be there... it persists. Until you recall a Performance that has something setup for your external device.

You setup your Performances so that sometimes you were addressing the external device from slot 1, some times from slot 5, other times from slot 8 - you apparently don't see this as a problem... I disagree, I think it is a problem. And the reason you are NOT seeing how this Zone Master function works. You can argue with me, or ... try what I'm suggesting and then see if it's not a workable method.

I'm suggesting/recommending that you always address your external device from the same numbered slot.
If your goal is mainly splitting and layering external together with internal Parts, dedicate Part 8 (which is Channel 8), for example, as the KBD CTRL slot for your external device. This way you know where to look for your external module. You have a dedicated Fader for your external device. When you need to use it exclusively for an internal Part, then you will know to set it up for exclusively internal (shut Transmit Off).

By dedicating this Part to potential external use, when you recall a Montage Performance that you haven't previously setup, If you are not using Part 8 for any internal Part, you will find that your external device simply remains wherever you last set it to be. (Persists). And it will be silent.

I chose Part 8 specifically because it least likely to be used by the internal Multi Part program. So this way when I recall a Performance that I have not setup in advance, I don't have to worry about my external device sounding; if I want it to sound, I simply setup Part 8's Zone. Turning the Zone Switch On, immediately recalls the current (persisting) setup... which I can then edit to my liking and I can then link this new configuration to the current Performance by pressing Store.

But we've been through this before.... I know you have a complicated setup, but all the more reason you should attempt what I'm suggesting. If it does not work for you, I would like to know why not (as much, if not more than you!!!); but then we at least have your input on what needs to be improved. But until you try it, you can't say there's only one way. Let us know. Thanks.

Bad Mister all my performance that I've realised have the same slot (part 8) that send midi message on same channel 11. The problem happen when before I select one of my program on montage that recall program on NE5, then I change program on NE5 panel and then I change program in montage going to montage preset program....in this last action montage send again midi message to NE5 and I don't want it because I changed program on NE5 before by its panel.
Maybe I can't understand what you mean...

Maybe I can't understand what you mean...

I think this is the case. Sorry.
I will try to put together a guide, maybe it will help.

Bad Mister I'm sorry too. The strange things is that I think that I'm working like you suggest me but you still say that I'm wrong so I can't understand what I wrong. I'm sure you know what to do better than me.
Please if there is something wrong in next my sentence explain it.
1- all my custom montage programs that I use to controol NE5 have the same slot (montage part 8) to controol by keyboard zone NE5 anytime on channel 11
2- some custom montage programs that I don't use to controol NE5 are without any zone setting in any part
3- I have customised only programs with max 8 parts
4- of course montage preset programs (that I use because I have in my set list) are without any zone setting

The problem that to me seems that montage send midi message also lefting program happens passing from custom program with midi message (1) to montage preset program (4)

Thanks anyway.
Best regards

@Andrea: I thought the previous help solved your issue. Even if there are new struggles - I thought there was some learning that occurred when you made it to the previous "fixed" plateau.

(ONE of the ...) previous main issues you had I believe was having two parts in a performance that both sent LSB/MSB/PC messages which caused the Nord to quickly "flash" one PART's change, then set to the other PART's. The step to remove all LSB/MSB/PC messages from all PARTs and instead delegating that role to PART 8 was a means to fix that issue. Using PART 8 has some logic (it's easy to remember as the external device so the PART slider will affect volume of your external device using slider #8), it's least likely to conflict with existing assignments, and also I think it is sent last in the sequence - so even if you had the programming "bug" (this is YOUR bug, not a problem with Montage) where you had a part 1-7 with LSB/MSB/PC being sent - Part 8 would be sent last and "override". This is assuming your external hardware properly buffered up the messages as they came in.

Jason honestly I can't understand what you mean.
First of all I don't have two parts that send midi message to NE5 but only part 8. Where do you see that?
Thanks
Ciao

Andrea wrote:
Jason honestly I can't understand what you mean.
First of all I don't have two parts that send midi message to NE5 but only part 8. Where do you see that?

I was referring to your previous thread
https://yamahasynth.com/forum/solved-strange-behavior-of-montage-recalling-by-midi-external-device-program-pay-attention-to-right-programming#reply-15415

The video and X7B file in that thread shows what I was mentioning.

If you're still having issues - perhaps you should continue to update that thread. Your last update was that the original MIDI issues were fixed.

And that's why, I believe, you are still having the issue. If you methodically look through your data, you will find that you have multiple Parts still addressing your external module. Perhaps not in the specific program but in one of the others... remember that "persist" means that one of the others causes the change and then interferes by changing.

It's something you've previously stored. And even though you think you've fixed it, at least one or more of your User Performances have messages you did not "undo" and update by storing over the old data. You need to fix and store, fix and store, fix and store.

And it is likely due to this previous wrong programming that you still are experiencing the issue. At least that is my understanding/best guess. When setting up previously you stored certain of your Performances with data for external communication - those must still be interfering with your overall setup.

You keep looking in the current Performance, not recognizing it is one of the Performances you are moving away from that has the wrong programming... how's that explanation?

Hi Badmister, I've checked one by one my custom performance programs and only part 8 send midi on channel 11. No other part send midi message.
Afeter finish checking my custom programs I selected next program that is "imperial grand piano" (from bosendorfer library) and big surprise!!!! It have part 8 empty but zone of part 8 ON with the setting equal to last custom program that I select before selecting "imperial grand piano". Maybe I understeand what you mean when you say that in the zone the setting persist.....but from my point of view the problem it isn't that the zone setting persist but the fact that when I select "Imperial gran piano" the midi message it is send again to my NE5.
From my personal point of view this is not correct because in the time that I select program (in this case montage preset program) that doesn't have any midi setting montage shouldent send midi message (in particolar in this case part 8 of "imperial grand piano" is empty but its zone is ON because it persisting from previous custom program selected).
I think (personal thinking, and usual behaviour of my previos keyboard) that right behavior of montage should be that when I select a preset program that doesn't has any midi setting it shouln't send any midi message also if before it I selected custom program with midi setting.
This mean that no custom program and preset program can exist in the same setting without that montage send midi message anytime (also when preset programs are selected). It mean that if I want that montage doesn't send midi message for some programs I need to save any program with zone setting off of part 8, also if this program is identical to preset program and also if part 8 is empty. From my point of view this is a limit because I must use slot to save program that I have jet in the preset programs.

I'm not sure how you would see that an empty slot has the PART 8's zone setting ON. You cannot with the built-in interface. I doubt what you're doing to "see" this is doing a bulk dump and looking at Part 8's SYSEX settings - which would be a way to "see". My assumption is that you're looking at the results and retro-fitting a theory to the behavior.

Of course zone master under advanced settings is a global setting and will stay set or not-set between performance changes.

MIDI-OX tells me that no MSB/LSB/PC (bank and program switching) messages are sent if I switch from a part with PART 8's part-zone turned on (and this performance does send MSB/LSB/PC) to a part that does not have any zone settings like presets or Yamaha released libraries.

What will happen is:

Step 1:Montage: switch to "Part 8 changes MSB/LSB" performance
Performance called "Part 8 changes MSB/LSB" will send a command to the NE5 and NE5 will switch to some program in response

Step 2:Montage: switch to "CFX + FM EP"
Montage will make CFX piano sounds, but no MIDI message is sent to NE5 (upon switching to the "CFX + FM EP" performance), so NE5 will continue to be set to MSB/LSB/PC set from step 1

Maybe your keyboard is different. At some point I would advocate looking at the MIDI bus with some tool like MIDI-OX to help assist in knowing what's going on.

Jason wrote:
"I'm not sure how you would see that an empty slot has the PART 8's zone setting ON. You cannot with the built-in interface."

Yes I can see with built in interface and you can too. In this way:
1) start with custom program that have part 1 without zone setting and part 8 with zone setting on
2) select preset program like cfx concert
3) select part 1 and edit it going to zone page setting (you find that is off)
4) with push selection button on the right of the panel, without touching display (so staying in zone menu page), select part 8. Now you can see zone setting ON in a part 8 that for cfx concert is empty, but the zone is ON because in previous program it was on.

If I swith in cfx concert program from a program that have part 8 zone setting off I found that in cfx concert part 8 (empty) have zone setting off too.

If I swith in cfx concert program from a program that have part 8 zone setting ON I found that in cfx concert part 8 (empty) have zone setting ON too. In part 8 it persist zone setting of previous program also if part 8 is empty.
That's what happen on my keyboard. I can make a video if you don't trust in my sentence

 

Thanks for the clarification. FYI - following this procedure I do not see that part 8's zone setting persists according to the last performance loaded.

If I call up a performance with part 8's zone setting ON - then use category search to call up a preset - part 8 does not show Zone=on for the preset.

Again, I'm using the previous firmware so this may be introduced in later firmware. Would be interesting to see others follow the procedure and report back findings.

You may get advice like initialize all to be sure you're not switching to a user performance that shares the same name as a preset - or otherwise clean out the cobwebs.

Not a trust issue - but videos do enhance communication as a non-edit video which is "zoomed out" to show all buttons you press will display the full procedure where text has a way of possibly leaving off a step.

The last video you provided was very informative and helped more readily demonstrate the "two parts with MSB/LSB/PC" issue.

Jason wrote:

I've done a video where you and Bad mister can see it (I apply link as soon it is ready on youtube). In this video you can see:
1) starting from select montage custom program "@NE5 - AP" that recall "Silver grand" program on NE5
2) In nord electro 5 by its control panel I change program going to "Empty program"
3) I select CFX Concert on montge --> it recall again "Silver grand" in NE5 (it shouldn't do that because it is preset montage program without zone setting on part 8)
4) I show you that in this moment it appear that in CFX Concert part 8 (that it is empty) have zone setting on (with the same setting of montage custom program "@NE5 - AP")

Please bad mister find here attached also my montage user file (I've cheched one by one all my performanca and all performance that have zone settin that send midi message have only part 8 active) where you can see that performance are setted as you suggest.

Attached files

20170115_MontageUser.zip (210.5 KB) 

 

Here the link to the video:
https://youtu.be/YUmEysbL3cA

Jason, BadMister did you check the video that I posted? What do you think about?
Thanks.
best regards