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user setlist via MIDI

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I want to activate a user setlist ( or a performance ) via MIDI. Where do I find a documentation which code to send ( MSB LSB PG change ) /

 
Posted : 01/11/2018 11:57 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Call up the Performance
Touch the Performance Name box to see the pop-in menu
Touch “Property”

Alternative Method:
Use the built in LIVE SET feature to organize your Performances... 16 to a Page;
Items placed in a Live Set slot can be recalled using an MSB/LSB/PC for its Live Set slot.

See the DATA LIST Booklet (downloadable as a pdf) page 187-188

See also: Performance Basics and the Live Set (Part 2)

 
Posted : 01/11/2018 1:07 pm
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Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks BM,

I found lots of information. But the only thing I didn’t find was how to adress for example setlist / user1 / slot1

Greetings from Bavaria
Seagreg

 
Posted : 05/11/2018 7:47 am
Jason
Posts: 7919
Illustrious Member
 

I've got all of the docs on my hard drive. The data list latest version (I have here) is called "montage_en_dl_h0.pdf". It can be downloaded from: https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/7/1214217/montage_en_dl_h0.pdf

Page 191 is where I see this information.

MSB = 62 decimal, 3E hex
LSB = 0 decimal, 00 hex
PC = 0 - 15 decimal, 00-0F hex

The above 3 combined selects Live-Set-Page 1, slots 1 (pc=0 decimal) through 16 (pc=15 decimal)

Page 2 is the same, LSB=1

... and so on through Live-Set-Page 16 where LSB=15 decimal, 0F hex.

 
Posted : 05/11/2018 10:33 am
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Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks. That works for liveset user1. But what’s about liveset preset or user 2 to 16?
At the Moment I’m working on the configuration of my MONTAGE / MODX7. I use one page for a song with 16 possible performances and to switch them via footcontroller.
That’s great. But there is no easy and fast way to switch between the pages especially in rehearsals.
I think there is a level missing to organize the pages ( overview, search ....) on the synths.
So I decided to work with songbook on the iPad and it works. Am I limited to 16 songs?

 
Posted : 06/11/2018 5:42 am
Posts: 0
Active Member
 

Hi,

You can switch between pages in a live set, as Jason has described above.

  • Live Set Page 0, Slot 0 is 3E, 00, 00
  • Live Set Page 1, Slot 0 is 3E, 01, 00
  • Live Set Page 2, Slot 0 is 3E, 02, 00
  • Etc. all the way up to LSB 0F for Page 15

Unfortunately, you cannot select a specific live set via MIDI, which is something I want to be able to do and have logged that over at Ideascale.

 
Posted : 06/11/2018 8:24 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Please take your time and try to understand how this works.

You have a Live Set that you can activate.
It’s primary purpose is to place the Performances you are going to use in front of you in an organized fashion. Each Page has 16 Live Set slots, there are 16 Pages of Live Set slots per User Live Set Bank and there are 8 User Banks... that’s 2048 Live Set slots in the User area.

The MSB/LSB/PC for the active Live Set Bank (256 slots per list) if you recall Live Set BANK = USER 1, then you have 16 Pages of 16 slots or 256 slots per that can be accessed

If you are using MSB/LSB/PC to recall your Performances, they do not have to be setup in any Live Set. Every Performance... repeat, every Performance, has an MSB/LSB/PC of its own. It does NOT have to be in a Live Set (unless that makes it easier for you) for you to recall it via MIDI.

If you are recalling your Performances via MIDI, you needn’t bother with Live Set, unless that makes it easier for you. In other words, every Performance, be it a Factory Preset, a User Bank Performance, or a Performance installed in one of your eight Libraries, has its own completely unique MSB/LSB/PC.

If you are recalling your Performances via MIDI you needn’t bother with Live Set, unless that makes it easier for you. Here’s how that might happen...

Since a Live Set can be assembled in seconds (Select the Performance; [SHIFT] + [LIVE SET]; tap the location); and because you view all your Performance Names alphabetically; you can draw from any Factory, User or Library location to quickly assemble your set. Then you can use a Foot Switch to advance through them. Or if your using an external device you can simply have it ALWAYS send in order:
062/000/000 to recall slot 1
062/000/001 to recall slot 2
062/000/002 to recall slot 3
and so on.... simply place the Performance in the appropriate slot. This way your external device simply is sending a command to advance...

Alternatively... put the Soundmondo app on your iOS device.
Keep a “Capture” of all your Performances... reordering a Set is as easy as moving your icons on a iPhone/iPad... each Performance has its own icon. Tap the icon to recall your Performance.

SUMMARY: if you are using MIDI to recall Performances you do not need to use Live Set (unless it makes it easier for you). Live Set was designed to give access to your Performances in a Bsnk you can configure quickly and easily. Use it ONLY when it works for you. If you are using MIDI, simply place the appropriate MSB/LSB/PC to recall the Performance directly.

From the HOME screen
Tap the Performance Name to see the pop-in menu
Tap “Property”
The MSB/LSB and Program Number appear.

 
Posted : 06/11/2018 9:23 am
Jason
Posts: 7919
Illustrious Member
 

I'm not sure why you can generate multiple banks of Live Sets but cannot access / recall these banks through the MSB/LSB/PC addressing. This is a limitation so populate your Live Set banks wisely in order to access what you want through MSB/LSB/PC if this is a requirement for you. If you run out of slots - and recalling Performances directly (without Live Set) doesn't work, you'll need to wait to see if more banks can be accessed in future firmware releases.

The Live Set is a shortcut to an actual Performance with the ability to apply a custom volume. If the custom volume is of value to you - then consider editing the volume in the original Performance or, if a Preset, create a User Performance with the volume edited. Then you could recall the Performance directly using a Performance MSB/LSB/PC rather than relying on the Live Set MSB/LSB/PC.

This may not work if you also rely on Live Set + (footswitch) for example. But there may be cases where you can recall the Performance directly and not need Live Set +. I'm not sure what paints you into a corner yet.

 
Posted : 06/11/2018 10:31 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

I think that I got it now thanks to your support.

Also I think that the perfect base for my work is to use one liveset / page as a container for one song.
There are several reasons why that is the best solution

1) I need more than one sound for a song. ( intro riff bridge .... ) 16 is a good amount and if it is not enough liveset+ steps to the next page. And one sound should be a multipart performace of the MONTAGE / MODX . That was the reason why a bought the keyboards. I want the full MONTAGE / MODX sounds capacity and no skinny single part performances using scenes

2) I can build a structure of the song and step through ( liveset+ with the foot switch without loosing connection to the keyboard - very fast and very important !)

3) No matter what the guys do on stage I always have access to all sounds of the song because they are in front of me

4) To start a song it is acceptable to use an external device like the iPad but during the song I want to handle everything from the keyboard ( during the song I am not lost if the external device has a problem )

5) to adjust the volume of the performance für one song because I use the same performance in different songs.

but there is a solution round the corner.

At the moment Yamaha is using LSB 0 - 15 with MSB 64. ( that means 16 Songs for me )
What´s about LSB 16 - 127 ?
If they would add 16 - 127 that would result in additional 112 pages ( each with 16 slots )
And that is quite enough.

A small step for Yamaha but a big win for all users !

 
Posted : 07/11/2018 7:34 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

I think that I got it now thanks to your support

No, I still don’t think you do...

Let’s try it this way.

The MONTAGE currently has 2655 Performances in the Factory Preset area
It has 640 Performances that can be housed in the User Bank area
It has 5120 Performances that can be housed in the Library Bank area.

Each and every one of those has a unique MSB/LSB/PC.
That’s 8415 Performances
I think you may want to reconsider your statement about Yamaha only using LSB numbers up to 15, (you think?)

If you use MIDI to access your Performances, then you should use MSB/LSB/PC to directly recall your programs.
If you are using the MONTAGE to recall your Performance use the Live Set feature.

Many are baffled by the Live Set, and how to use it... don’t let that confuse you...
There are eight USER Banks - try to define the usefulness of these separate Banks for yourself. You can do so by realizing how many items are stored and are recallable.

Live Set Bank #1 — 16 Pages of 16 Slots. That’s 256 slot locations. If you need more than this for a single set, I highly recommend you seek a different approach entirely (see below). For the 99.9% of us this will be more changes than we make in one musical set.

You can use a Foot Switch (FC4/5) Type to advance through the currently active Live Set. “FS = Live Set+“

The LIVE SET MSB/LSB/PC recall routine: 062/xxx/yyy applies to the currently active Live Set Bank. By “currently active” this means:
_if you activate the Preset LIVE SET Bank, 062/000/000 will recall “CFX + FM EP”... there is only one Bank of Preset Live Set slots.
_if you activate the User LIVE SET Bank, 062/000/000 will recall the first slot of your selected User Bank, 1-8... each User Bank has the 256 slots... right Banks
_if you activate a Library LIVE SET, 062/000/000 will recall the first slot of your selected Library, 1-8 and its Bank, 1-8... each of the eight Libraries has 8 Live Set Banks, each of these Live Set Banks has 256 slots.

In each case you are activating a Live Set Bank — 16 Pages of 16 slots. A set list that can have 256 items.
Correct. Access to 256.

Now if your thinking each of these slots should be addressable via the Live Set MSB/LSB protocol, then you’re not understanding much about synth memory — and while the MONTAGE has a staggering amount of memory, that would be gargantuan (each Live Set slot has room for info (message, color scheme) and a volume offset... as you approach 10,000 Performances that becomes a significant amount of memory (I’m willing to wager most would rather use to store Waveforms)

What I’m finding most people miss (when they have trouble getting their heads around this) is the “currently active” thing. You make a Live Set active by recalling it. It’s probably so simple most don’t realize they have done it! Once a Live Set is activated you remain in it until you recall another.

Steps to recall a Live Set:
Press the [LIVE SET] button
Select the BANK
you have now activated this as your “current” Live Set Bank.

You can now go anywhere in the architecture... if you step on the FS set to “Live Set+” you will recall the first slot of the current Live Set Bank!
You can now advance through your designated list... 256 slots. The current screen does not matter (unless you manually leave the list... in which case you reset to the first item once you advance via the FS).

Need to move from Bank 1, Page 16, Slot 16 (that’s slot 256) to Bank 2, Page 1, Slot 1 (that’s slot 1 in the next Bank)... sorry, you’ll need to *activate* Live Set BANK = 2.
If this doesn’t work for you because you have more than 256 Performances changes (it can happen) then you should simply use the USER Bank to place your Performances in order, you can still advance through them — and you’ll have 640 you can list in this manner.

As you know each set of 640 can be installed as a Library.

If you need also to leave yourself a note, or color code the entries on your list, or even store a volume offset setting, these things can all be handled externally via MIDI. As mentioned (many times) every Performance in MONTAGE has its own unique MSB/LSB/PC. Use it! Need more than 256? more than 640? use MSB/LSB/PC. If you need thousands of Performances you can recall any of them using this protocol, adding a volume message should not be difficult via MIDI.

Hope that helps.

 
Posted : 07/11/2018 3:02 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks BM, a was scratching the surface and have to dive deeper ...

I think you may want to reconsider your statement about Yamaha only using LSB numbers up to 15, (you think?)
my statement was "At the moment Yamaha is using LSB 0 - 15 with MSB 64" available Live Set Select/Programm Change.

 
Posted : 07/11/2018 7:14 pm
Jason
Posts: 7919
Illustrious Member
 

Now if your thinking each of these slots should be addressable via the Live Set MSB/LSB protocol, then you’re not understanding much about synth memory — and while the MONTAGE has a staggering amount of memory, that would be gargantuan (each Live Set slot has room for info (message, color scheme) and a volume offset... as you approach 10,000 Performances that becomes a significant amount of memory (I’m willing to wager most would rather use to store Waveforms)

I believe one request was a way to access other banks through the MSB/LSB/PC scheme. This scheme does not require the room you suggest "message, color scheme, volume offset". None of these are stored within the memory of the MSB/LSB/PC. The MSB/LSB/PC is a table of pointers - much like the ones for performances do not require memory for all of the parameters and the waveforms and ... everything. Each is an internal lookup table and likely only takes a few bytes (not the many more bytes that would be required to store the message+color scheme+volume). Given you are currently only using the lower nibble of LSB (as was correctly pointed) for Live Set - one possible solution would be for the upper 3 bits to set the bank.

62/bbbpppp/0-127

Where pppp is the current page number (0-15) and bbb is the bank number (0-7). Assuming your current Live Set bank selected is the user bank, this gives access to all 8 user banks.

or

62/0-15/0-127 for current bank live set as today.
62/16/0-16 for bank select (as an example) PC=0 preset, PC=1-8 user banks, PC=9-16 library.

there's lots of ways to skin it - the amount of memory required for these extra slots is not significant. If we assume a 32-bit pointer per lookup table, that's adding 64 bytes with one scheme or 28 bytes with the other.

I'm not really looking, personally, to change this - but the memory requirement to select live-set bank over MIDI is over stated if you add the live-set parameters to the mix.

The probable reason for the limit of only 16 pages is that the preset bank only has 16 pages total - so if there was a way to address more than 16 pages at a time - the decode for the preset area has to have boundary checks which is slightly more difficult to code than currently where there are no boundary issues sticking with 16 pages. So there may be real "challenges" to easily implementing a bank select feature through MIDI.

I haven't been able to find an alternative way to stimulate Montage, using MIDI, to get the Live Set bank to select anything other than its current bank setting. Manual advancement using the control surface (which includes the touchscreen) seems to be the requirement for this route.

 
Posted : 07/11/2018 10:12 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks Jason,

You did exactly point out in more detail what I’ve tried to explain.
And maybe my knowledge about synth memory isn’t so bad .....

 
Posted : 08/11/2018 4:51 am
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

- one possible solution would be for the upper 3 bits to set the bank.

62/bbbpppp/0-127

Where pppp is the current page number (0-15) and bbb is the bank number (0-7). Assuming your current Live Set bank selected is the user bank, this gives access to all 8 user

That would perfectly solve my „problems“

 
Posted : 08/11/2018 5:07 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

In the meantime, every Performance has its own MSB/LSB and PC.

 
Posted : 08/11/2018 11:27 am
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