We moved your post to the MOXF forum, as your question is about moving from a Motif ES to a MOXF.

Although such a move is from 2003 forward a decade in time to 2013, you are moving from a top-of-the-line synth to the second tier. You would need to tell us what it is about the ES you found a compelling feature, then compare those things.

In a decade's time the second tier is more powerful than the top-of-the-line in many respects, but not in all things.
Certainly, the big improvements include XA CONTROL -which adds to the realtime perform-ability, a decade of new Effects, EQ, (VCM); Motif XF compatibility is a huge feature/benefit of the MOXF, etc., etc,
The MOXF does not use Plug-in boards, nor does it have the Integrated Sampler... Although you can load sampled waveforms if you add an optional Flash Board.

And while you will quickly find your way around, it is really something you should research carefully. Motif ES8 has a Balanced Hammer action with Aftertouch, quite different from the MOXF8 which has a Graded Hammer action without Aftertouch.

There is no direct file compatibility between a Motif ES and a MOXF; you'd need to export your Songs and Patterns as .mid files (the universal method to move sequence data). Since both Motif ES and MOXF come with Cubase, you can use it to assist you in transferring your sequence data. Remapping sequences from one synthesizer to another is time consuming and not necessarily "simple" - new synth, you are selecting new sounds.

There is no compatibility between your MIXING setups, Performances, etc.

Bad Mister wrote:

We moved your post to the MOXF forum, as your question is about moving from a Motif ES to a MOXF.

Although such a move is from 2003 forward a decade in time to 2013, you are moving from a top-of-the-line synth to the second tier. You would need to tell us what it is about the ES you found a compelling feature, then compare those things.

In a decade's time the second tier is more powerful than the top-of-the-line in many respects, but not in all things.
Certainly, the big improvements include XA CONTROL -which adds to the realtime perform-ability, a decade of new Effects, EQ, (VCM); Motif XF compatibility is a huge feature/benefit of the MOXF, etc., etc,
The MOXF does not use Plug-in boards, nor does it have the Integrated Sampler... Although you can load sampled waveforms if you add an optional Flash Board.

And while you will quickly find your way around, it is really something you should research carefully. Motif ES8 has a Balanced Hammer action with Aftertouch, quite different from the MOXF8 which has a Graded Hammer action without Aftertouch.

There is no direct file compatibility between a Motif ES and a MOXF; you'd need to export your Songs and Patterns as .mid files (the universal method to move sequence data). Since both Motif ES and MOXF come with Cubase, you can use it to assist you in transferring your sequence data. Remapping sequences from one synthesizer to another is time consuming and not necessarily "simple" - new synth, you are selecting new sounds.

There is no compatibility between your MIXING setups, Performances, etc.

I apologize, I messed the question up by putting the MOXF in my question. I meant the Motif XF. I was interested in the ease of use compared to the Motif ES. And the compatibility with new technology, one piece of new technology being the Montage. Also, I am trying to get away from mLAN/firewire, and was hoping that the technology in the XF will be supported smoothly and technically for at least five years, if I purchase one to accompany the Montage (I just found out that it is being discontinued after I thought I might buy one). The compelling feature about the Motif XF is the built in sampler like the ES has plus it has the onboard sequencer. Basically it seems that the XF competes with almost every fully loaded synth workstation. I was, however, looking at the MOXF because of its built in flash drive, until I found it did not have an onboard sampler. I guess I really want to replace my ES with a unit that is very much like it, but is up to date technologically, so the transferring of data is easier, and also I limit the amount of extra hardware I might need to perform functions such as sampling, sequencing, even just saving data. With the ES I am using a 2gb usb stick that can not be inserted into basically any newer yamaha model. And for example I think I have to find a computer now that has windows 7 or lower to even begin with the transferring of my midi data from the, out of date and seemingly obsolete, 2gb usb stick. It just seems like another hoop to jump through, to accomplish anything. I am just dealing with an older, out of date product where it seems in order to utilize it, I will have to search harder, buy more older products to make it function with new technology and work more just trying to get it to connect with the newer equipment easier. Just seems like I could make my life easier by getting rid of the ES, and I would be willing to learn how to utilize the XF with the Montage, if one thinks that the jump from an ES to an XF is a pretty smooth transition. I am wondering, now that I found the XF is being discontinued, if after I purchase it, will Yamaha in a year or two release an all new actual workstation that will then put the XF further in the rear view mirror. I am just a player (26 years), not a super technical guy, but ive not exactly tried tried my best in that regard. I dont even know if my question makes total sense. BUT the bottom line for me is that I am willing to put in the many hours and yearning to learn everything. I just want to make my path the easiest that it can be, minimizing the hoops and hurdles as much as possible. If you could bare with me and try and get to the root of what I am asking I would honestly and greatly appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Also, you mentioned Cubase. Could this be the link between all the models we are talking of, in terms of transferring data? Thank you again.

Ok, once again, we've moved your post to the Motif XF forum. We do feel your pain... Decisions, decisions, decisions. But it is probably less difficult than you are making it.

If you are using the Sampler in the Motif ES, you have to ask yourself: "How am I using it, as an instrument maker (where you are multi sampling and instrument and mapping it to be played), or am I sampling as a sound effects/one shot audio clip player (where you use a note-on event to trigger playback of recorded audio; The answer to this question will go a long way to deciding if you actually need a sampler built-in to the keyboard.

You have to realize that musical instruments, do not, in general, include built-in sampling and sequencing (the Integrated Sampling Sequencer was the core technology that drove the Motif - Motif ES - Motif XS - Motif XF run of products. The ability to do music production in one box. Yet throughout the entire 15 year run, computer integration was incrementally pushed to new levels. Think about mLAN/FireWire, audio and MIDI down a single cable using a single unified driver, Studio Connections initiative to include external hardware into the "total recall" world of computer software based recording, the purchase of Steinberg (the leader DAW cross platform software), the inclusion of chord intelligence into world of synthesizers, advanced routing of audio signal via VST3 protocol that allowed creative workflows for musicians. The whole making the keyboard synthesizer the center of you studio setup.

Montage's focus is not do much being the entire center of your studio, it's focus is to be the go to synthesizer for whatever role you need a keyboard to play. It is not trying to be the whole studio itself, but it is designed to be your INSTRUMENT, the one you chose when someone asks you to play!

Query yourself and decide what about the ES sampler you really utilize. If it is linear recording (adding vocals, guitar solos, sound effects, etc.) into your music tracks, perhaps it's time to recognize that like the 2003 Motif ES being difficult to run in an updated world, updating your workflow might be better served with a software DAW. The improvements in DAWs has been significant during this same time period as well.

Truth is, in the real world of the median musician keyboard player, it is not unusual for a musician to keep a keyboard for ten years. Which means if you had upgraded to a Motif XF three years ago, you would have been right on time. Your workflow would have been just right versus the increasing speed at which the computer industry obsoletes peripherals. You would not find it as difficult to find USB drives, connectors, etc., etc, that serve your needs. The Motif (classic) stretches back to SCSI - imagine that! The ES at least had USB and the now impossible to find (easily) SmartMedia cards.

I have no magic answer for you, only advice that says: analyze what and how you use your ES. Then ask questions on how that would be accomplished today. You may be surprised that it is not only handled easily and conveniently using the integration of hardware and software. It has been a direction Yamaha has been strongly promoting over time.

How Montage works in the computer environment, is more focused on being a musical instrument capable of being any sound, with discreet audio transfer capability. The 32 audio bus outputs means in the studio the Montage is a flexible tool. It is not trying to be your studio, it is a musical instrument that when you connect it allows you to creatively route and record what it has to offer. The Montage is not a control surface, it is not a sampler, it is not a Motif. It is the synth that you want to play because that's what it does best!

Can you describe how you feel the sampler in the ES works for you?

Hey, thank you for your response. I feel like I might be getting somewhere 🙂 I sample as a sound effects/one shot audio clip player. What do you think? And thank you again.

I like to do a good amount of voice as well as single instrument sampling. More live recording to obtain the sample

The way you use sampling is not going to be missed in a workflow that uses a computer DAW. Positioning, triggering and managing this type of sampling use is a piece of cake. Recording audio to a computer through FW (Motif XF) or through USB (MOXF and Montage) is a similar process, the routing is similar and the results can at a later time be exported and stored in the synthesizer. So at the end of the day, you can do everything you were doing sampling directly to the ES.

In other words, creating the audio using your Yamaha synth to setup and process the audio on the way to the computer, then using that audio in the computer as you sequence other tracks, and then finally exporting that audio to the FLASH memory of the hardware, means you can use that audio in your setup when you go to the stage (without having the computer attached). That is a very common workflow.

Any audio recorded to the computer can be exported so that you can use it in the XF or in the Montage once converted and exported to the synth, the audio becomes a permanent part of your customized wave ROM... meaning you will have access to it any time without having to load it.

In a similar fashion, you must address all of your workflow issues... You've had years to develop your particular workflow on the ES, finding new ways to work does not have to be traumatic - but when you find it hard to interface older hardware with newer operating systems, or even storage devices, we are often nudged forward before we're ready. While you will be hard pressed to find a computer that comes standard with a FW port, fortunately, Thunderbolt is 100% backward compatible with FW (giving you at least several more years of use, easy)...

If Pattern recording is a part of your workflow, then looking into the equivalent workflow on a computer is something you must do. Most DAWs offer some sort of cycle/loop record. Even the entry level Cubase AI lets you record quickly and easily in this fashion. In the full version of Cubase (Pro 8) you get a full blown Pattern like structure called PLAY ORDER - ARRANGE which is very much based on a similar workflow to PATTERN - PATTERN CHAIN as found in Motif-series. You can define play order regions creating your composition quickly, easily and intuitively.

But even in the entry level AI you can certainly loop record, and manually move sections around easily enough.

But only you can do such an analysis of how YOU like to work. We have a kind of unofficial 'rule of thumb', that at the speed of technology, 10 years is average keyboard purchase length, at that point you certainly will find computers have obsoleted many of your peripherals be it floppy disks, SCSI, Zip, Syquest, SmartMedia cards, etc., etc. Trying to stretch your system across more than ten years you start to see the limits of time span... It may keep getting shorter, but that is not guaranteed either because computer speed and bandwidth has reached a plateau that can handle our musical needs, (in other word, even if it continues to get faster and faster, right now it is plenty fast enough for current needs) so it may level off for a while.

The 32 bus outputs from Montage, via USB, is next level audio connectivity between a hardware instrument and a computer. And with computer software developers working fevriously over the past decade to make audio editing as flexible as possible... They are striving to make it as convenient as editing MIDI in many respects. It pays to make your next purchase based on exploring different people's workflows to see if you can find one suitable for yourself.

But if you've been avoiding computers all this time (some people I talk to have been doing this) because of some an issue you had or heard about ten years ago, it's all different now. The issues are updated, too. 🙂 I don't tell anyone to work a certain way, I can only make suggestions. Attend a Club Cubase meeting if there is a group in your area, they also have GOOGLE-hangouts where you can interact with others online.

Any way, I hope some of this is helpful. It really comes down to your personal workflow and how you are comfortable making music. Some people's first thought is to use a computer for almost everything, but for many it is not even something they consider seriously... Their last thought would be to find a mouse and click their way through setting up and recording.

It might be time to look into different workflows, talk to people who find it easy to work a certain way. You maybe surprise that some of what you thought was an issue, has now been easily overcome. Many think that setting up is the most tedious and difficult thing about computer-based systems. And before you are setup, IT IS.

As you may know, I spend a lot of my time helping folks with these things... My experience: the biggest misconception about computer setups are that it is very hard and that there is just one setup that works for everything you want to do. Many think you have to setup all over again EVERY SINGLE TIME... They don't realize that you can "lock in" your initial setup so that when you launch the DAW it knows YOUR setup!!! Actually, when setup right you name and save this - you need only do it once correctly.

Instead of using the default templates, create your own. That's the key. You need a setup for original record, a setup for overdubbing, and a setup for mixing down. Those are your three basic "things to do" with an external computer as your studio recorder. Once you become confident in the signal flow, your comfort zone becomes a reality. Take your time, ask your friends who also work with music, but remember, it's your personal decision- it has to work for you.

Thank you for your response. Once again, I am getting to be enlightened. Just to clarify, cause there is a discrepancy online it seems to whether or not thunderbolt can work with a PC. I thought you would know for sure. And I don't need to find a CPU with an FW PORT then? Also, I don't know if this is the right place to ask about, but what are your thoughts on a tyros 5 being introduced to my setup. I was told by a representative at where I shop, that this arranger is easier to follow and work with then the Motif and it also has everything to create without a DAW, but also works well in DAW. I figure, what I need to learn with the ES and what I need to learn with a new keyboard, it is probably going to actually be less time consuming and more functional to start with an up to date new model. Is this the unit you might recommend, for users of the motif series that are from the early 2000's ? It seems to be the only workstation/ arranger that isn't discontinued. I'm not trying to just spend money, but do you think this might be a good route to go if the option was available? Thank you again. Again, I don't know if this part is appropriate for the Motif XF section. Let me know where it goes to if you got to move it. I don't see a section for tyros. Thanks a ton to. You are really informative and helping me understand. Thank you.

Bad Mister wrote:

The way you use sampling is not going to be missed in a workflow that uses a computer DAW. Positioning, triggering and managing this type of sampling use is a piece of cake. Recording audio to a computer through FW (Motif XF) or through USB (MOXF and Montage) is a similar process, the routing is similar and the results can at a later time be exported and stored in the synthesizer. So at the end of the day, you can do everything you were doing sampling directly to the ES.

In other words, creating the audio using your Yamaha synth to setup and process the audio on the way to the computer, then using that audio in the computer as you sequence other tracks, and then finally exporting that audio to the FLASH memory of the hardware, means you can use that audio in your setup when you go to the stage (without having the computer attached). That is a very common workflow.

Any audio recorded to the computer can be exported so that you can use it in the XF or in the Montage once converted and exported to the synth, the audio becomes a permanent part of your customized wave ROM... meaning you will have access to it any time without having to load it.

In a similar fashion, you must address all of your workflow issues... You've had years to develop your particular workflow on the ES, finding new ways to work does not have to be traumatic - but when you find it hard to interface older hardware with newer operating systems, or even storage devices, we are often nudged forward before we're ready. While you will be hard pressed to find a computer that comes standard with a FW port, fortunately, Thunderbolt is 100% backward compatible with FW (giving you at least several more years of use, easy)...

If Pattern recording is a part of your workflow, then looking into the equivalent workflow on a computer is something you must do. Most DAWs offer some sort of cycle/loop record. Even the entry level Cubase AI lets you record quickly and easily in this fashion. In the full version of Cubase (Pro 8) you get a full blown Pattern like structure called PLAY ORDER - ARRANGE which is very much based on a similar workflow to PATTERN - PATTERN CHAIN as found in Motif-series. You can define play order regions creating your composition quickly, easily and intuitively.

But even in the entry level AI you can certainly loop record, and manually move sections around easily enough.

But only you can do such an analysis of how YOU like to work. We have a kind of unofficial 'rule of thumb', that at the speed of technology, 10 years is average keyboard purchase length, at that point you certainly will find computers have obsoleted many of your peripherals be it floppy disks, SCSI, Zip, Syquest, SmartMedia cards, etc., etc. Trying to stretch your system across more than ten years you start to see the limits of time span... It may keep getting shorter, but that is not guaranteed either because computer speed and bandwidth has reached a plateau that can handle our musical needs, (in other word, even if it continues to get faster and faster, right now it is plenty fast enough for current needs) so it may level off for a while.

The 32 bus outputs from Montage, via USB, is next level audio connectivity between a hardware instrument and a computer. And with computer software developers working fevriously over the past decade to make audio editing as flexible as possible... They are striving to make it as convenient as editing MIDI in many respects. It pays to make your next purchase based on exploring different people's workflows to see if you can find one suitable for yourself.

But if you've been avoiding computers all this time (some people I talk to have been doing this) because of some an issue you had or heard about ten years ago, it's all different now. The issues are updated, too. 🙂 I don't tell anyone to work a certain way, I can only make suggestions. Attend a Club Cubase meeting if there is a group in your area, they also have GOOGLE-hangouts where you can interact with others online.

Any way, I hope some of this is helpful. It really comes down to your personal workflow and how you are comfortable making music. Some people's first thought is to use a computer for almost everything, but for many it is not even something they consider seriously... Their last thought would be to find a mouse and click their way through setting up and recording.

It might be time to look into different workflows, talk to people who find it easy to work a certain way. You maybe surprise that some of what you thought was an issue, has now been easily overcome. Many think that setting up is the most tedious and difficult thing about computer-based systems. And before you are setup, IT IS.

As you may know, I spend a lot of my time helping folks with these things... My experience: the biggest misconception about computer setups are that it is very hard and that there is just one setup that works for everything you want to do. Many think you have to setup all over again EVERY SINGLE TIME... They don't realize that you can "lock in" your initial setup so that when you launch the DAW it knows YOUR setup!!! Actually, when setup right you name and save this - you need only do it once correctly.

Instead of using the default templates, create your own. That's the key. You need a setup for original record, a setup for overdubbing, and a setup for mixing down. Those are your three basic "things to do" with an external computer as your studio recorder. Once you become confident in the signal flow, your comfort zone becomes a reality. Take your time, ask your friends who also work with music, but remember, it's your personal decision- it has to work for you.

A couple more questions to, from your response. I think it might bode well if I just quickly describe my situation or location. I am in a pretty remote area. If I want to have access to in person workshops and even get new equipment from say guitar center, in the city, I would have to drive a round trip of 6 hours. So my decisions regarding which equipment and gear is required, needs to be well planned so my time can be efficiently maximized. That is kinda why I am trying to get a good set up, in which I have a workstation/ arranger plus a performance synth, where the Internet would be welcomed as my main source of information. With that being said, is there a class online with regards to cubase? What do you recommend? And also, I thought if I described my remoteness for the time being, it would maybe help you understand my needs and limitations a tad.
Also, I hate to sound dumb, but what does mixing down mean exactly? And also you kinda hit the nail on the head when you mentioned people's views on the setup process, that is pretty much me, except I not only feel this way about the setup within a DAW, but also about the tangible setup of hardware, and I was curious if you could go over kinda like a check list of the right equipment for hooking everything together? Here is what I have so far: 1. Lenovo Ultrabook w/ windows 10
2. Motif ES (depending if I upgrade, which I'm leaning towards)
3. the Montage.
4.Yamaha kc 550
5.microphone
6. One set of audio cables
That's about all I have right now. Could you help me with the other key things I need for hooking it all together, with the motif ES and then also with a tyros or other new/ up to date arranger/ workstation? Just both scenarios I guess. I can't describe how your input is like gold to me. If I could find a way to return the favor I won't hesitate. Maybe the musical product I create and innovate in the future, based on your help, will be like gold to your ears. Thank you very much.

... is there a class online with regards to cubase? What do you recommend? And also, I thought if I described my remoteness for the time being, it would maybe help you understand my needs and limitations a tad.

I already mentioned Steinberg has online Goggle Hangouts where you can be online with Cubase experts to learn more about the program and how you could use it. They have video tutorials you can browse at anytime, but the Google hangs are scheduled at specific times.

Also, I hate to sound dumb, but what does mixing down mean exactly?

Mixdown is word that comes from the recording studio and is the process of finalizing a multi-track recording into a final stereo format.

Multi-track recording can vary in size from a few tracks to motion picture scores that feature several hundred tracks, before they can be release to the public on a commercially available CD, for example, those hundreds of tracks must be mixed down to a standard stereo format.

And also you kinda hit the nail on the head when you mentioned people's views on the setup process, that is pretty much me, except I not only feel this way about the setup within a DAW, but also about the tangible setup of hardware, and I was curious if you could go over kinda like a check list of the right equipment for hooking everything together?

You need a computer capable of running the software you are planning on using. You also want to ensure the connectivity options; you'll want to ensure you have at least two USB ports available.

There is no such thing as a Yamaha KC500 (?) Is that a Keyboard Amp? We do not recommend Keyboard amps.

We highly recommend a pair of studio monitors if you are setting up to record at home. (Yamaha HS7 or HS8 monitor speakers will not break the bank and make a good choice for home studio monitors). HS are near-field monitors designed to be highly accurate sound at close quarters. You need a pair of speakers to listen in stereo.

You will want to connect the ES or the Montage in stereo - if you need a system that can double as high fidelity stereo audio, and yet can go do a live gig as well, please look into a small portable P.A. system... Something like the StagePAS 400i or 600i, which are 200 and 340 Watts per side, respectively, delivers high fidelity sound with power for small venues.

In a perfect world, you'd have a pair of studio monitors for recording, at home, and sound reinforcement rig for performing live (based on the size venues you play in)

In general, Keyboard Amps are generally considered extremely low fidelity sound. You'll want stereo at minimum, a high fidelity, high definition stereo sound system.

With regards to my CPU I have the following Ports:
2 x USB 2.0, 1 x USB 3.0, HDMI, 2-in1 card reader (SD/MMC). Even though one port is 3.0, can I still plug into any of them or what is the difference between them other than speed?

Here is an interesting question. I was reading some of your old posts and you were talking about studio monitors and sound. You mentioned that we all have two ears, and that nobody would listen to music in mono or something like that. And you mentioned that if you are making music your life or do it for fun, you should do it right. Well what if you happened to only hear from one ear and how do you think you should set up? Do you I need two monitors? Should I invest in one awesome monitor? Or am I just always going to be listening incorrectly and doing it wrong? This is a serious question.

Thank you

You there???

Well what if you happened to only hear from one ear and how do you think you should set up? Do you I need two monitors? Should I invest in one awesome monitor? Or am I just always going to be listening incorrectly and doing it wrong? This is a serious question.

If you only hear from one ear then stereo and stereo imagining is not a concern.

Bad Mister wrote:

Well what if you happened to only hear from one ear and how do you think you should set up? Do you I need two monitors? Should I invest in one awesome monitor? Or am I just always going to be listening incorrectly and doing it wrong? This is a serious question.

If you only hear from one ear then stereo and stereo imagining is not a concern.

Thank you. So do you think I set up in standard stereo and not change anything? Or does mono come into play do think in some way ? I just have no clue. I've always done things normally and dont have issues really. But i never have used monitors, so just seeing if I can learn anything that you might think would maximize sound intake . . Anyway, I appreciate your help. Thank you