To actually have the moxf use all parameters with the voice,one has to select another voice and then flip back to your wanted voice after turning on the FX, THEN they will be added... Why can't that "P. with fx" checkbox bring in the parameters alone, why the need to fiddle with the actual voice afterwards (or, enabling that p. with voice flag and then select the voice?

First, thank you for taking the time to offer the suggestion. But what you ask is a legitimate question - which does have an answer. The "why" becomes more obvious when you understand the factors involved. Because this is a mature operating system, it has evolved to allow for the most flexibility within each MODE. Each Mode having a specific use case and a different allocation of the available resources.

First the MOXF cannot ever "use all parameters with the Voice" - this is due to the nature of the VOICE and the nature of the VOICE within a "PART". If the MOXF was one thing in VOICE mode and sixteen of those things in SONG or PATTERN mode, then what you think would, indeed, happen automatically. The MOXF VOICE would/could then use all parameter with the VOICE... but the fact is, the MOXF does not literally multiply by a factor of 16 when you go to SONG or PATTERN mode.

In VOICE mode (for good reason), the single VOICE is able to use "all parameters" - all available resources. Some parameters are actually programmed as apart of the VOICE, others are 'added on' and are able to be stored with the VOICE - like customizing how they respond via 'quick access' controls - but they are clearly NOT apart of the VOICE. For example, when you program a VOICE you can attach six arpeggio phrases to it. These phrases are not apart of the VOICE; any of the 7800+ arpeggio phrases can be attached to a VOICE, but they are not like a permanent part of the VOICE. Analogy: The riffs that a guitar player chooses to play are not really apart of his guitar - they are simply something that they could play. So arps are not apart of the guitar Voice, they are simply associated with it. Arp do not automatically come along when you put a Voice in a "PART".

So just because Arpeggio XYZ is attached to a VOICE in VOICE mode, doesn't mean it will automatically be brought along when you place it in a SONG or PATTERN MIXING, and neither does the Tempo. Any of the 7800+ Arps can be associated with any VOICE at any time.

As another example, each VOICE, when in VOICE mode, has access to 2 INSERTION EFFECT, the 2 SYSTEM EFFECTS, and the MASTER EFFECT and MASTER EQ. I mean why not? If you are performing - you want it all. The one Voice has exclusive use of all resources.

When you place this VOICE as a PART in a SONG MIXING or PATTERN MIXING (or PERFORMANCE) it must now "share" the SYSTEM EFFECTS, the MASTER EFFECT and the MASTER EQ with the rest of the band. Not every VOICE will bring its own REVERBERATION chamber, Not every VOICE has its own MASTER EFFECT (all the band must "share" going through the Master Effect) and what sense would it be to have 16 MASTER EQ's? (none) - rather each PART has its own PART EQ, and they all share the MASTER EQ together. Make sense! It is very real world.

So the attempt many people try: "to make a VOICE sound exactly like it does in VOICE mode" is not something that can be done times sixteen. It is not practical, decision should be made based on context you put the Voice in... Just because a specific EQ works when the Voice is solo, has nothing to do with what it might require when combined with other instruments. That is reality. Each member of the band cannot bring the acoustics of their home practice room to the studio. Some of the Effects and some of the settings from home will not be appropriate in the studio. Some of the Settings from VOICE mode will not be appropriate when in SONG MIXING or PATTERN MIXING mode. It is that simple and that complex. Add to this that a maximum of 8 PARTs can recall their Dual Insertion Effects. You will find that some Voices require their Insert Effect, other may not even have one assigned to do much - so allocating effects is the same as it is any real world recording studio... Customize the Effects based on the ensemble result. If you think a factory Voice is perfect - then the original programmer was psychic. The MOXF anticipates you will want to choose which eight Parts, and what the two Insert Effects per Part are assigned. You even get a special Mix Voice bank to hold your customized edits, per Mixing setup!

The "Parameter With Voice" function allows you to bring along certain OFFSET parameters that might have been used in VOICE mode. (It does not copy the Insert Effects because Insert Effects ARE apart of the VOICE). Like if you like the arpeggio phrases that Yamaha programmed (associated) with the VOICE you can 'get' them. But perhaps the best example is the Cutoff and Resonance settings from VOICE mode, the Attack and Release parameters, or even the TEMPO (what if each Voice you selected changed the Tempo of the SONG) - Tempo is a parameter stored with the VOICE but is never brought along to the Studio (Mixing).

These are parameters that are not really apart of the VOICE, they are associated and stored with the VOICE parameters - here's what we mean: A Voice can be made up of 8 Elements (Oscillators) - each of the oscillators has its own FILTER, its own AMP, its own PITCH and tuning... let's discuss the Filters: 8 different Filters can be active. When you turn the knob labeled CUTOFF... you are OFFSETTING the stored setting for the 8 Filters, simultaneously, and proportionally. You are not editing just one Filter. You are ADDING or SUBTRACTING values from the stored CUTOFF Frequency of each of the 8 Filters. One Element might have a Low Pass Filter and turning the knob would open the filter - at the same time the next Element might have a High Pass Filter which works opposite by the same gesture!

It would take 8 knobs and more arms and hands than you have to adjust the brightness of a sound. So they ganged all 8 Cutoff parameters into the one knob labeled CUTOFF. (the Cutoff knob is not connected to a Filter - it is connected to 8 Filters!!!). If you set the CUTOFF to +6 and the RESONANCE to +12, you have applied OFFSET values to each of the 8 Filters in the VOICE. We refer to the Knobs as QUICK ACCESS editing - contrasted with IN DEPTH editing. This is the equivalent of going to Edit > selecting Element 1 > selecting the individual Filter > and changing the Cutoff Frequency, then repeating that for Elements 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and then 8. Obviously when performing no one wants to move 8 knobs to simply brighten the timbre a bit. But we decided to allow the performer to STORE these OFFSETS (you can see that KNOB positions can be stored... you are OFFSETTING to the original programming).

These OFFSET parameters (Cutoff, Resonance, Attack, Release, tempo, etc) these are not really Voice parameters; they are simply associated with the VOICE. These are some of the Parameters that are copied when "Parameter with Voice" is activated. If you know exactly *which* parameter are affected (and importantly, those that are NOT), you would go to the MIXING setup knowing, "I want to use the Voice the way that I set the OFFSET parameters back in Voice mode" - you would know to turn on the "Parameter with Voice" on FIRST, so that when you select the VOICE the OFFSET parameters would come along with them.

If, however, you discover this feature from the down hill direction, you see it as a confusing extra step... however, once you recognize that it is really about including Voice "tweaks" - it becomes a huge useful FEATURE that you think about first. (so like you say it is not really big deal, just a matter of perspective).

The Master EQ, the Master FX, and the SYSTEM Effects obviously are not captured - the REVERB SEND amount, the CHORUS SEND amount - are not captured. These are settings - which may be critical in VOICE mode, but you get no help from the technology in setting how much Reverb or Chorus. These types of effects and their settings change dramatically when you add other instruments.

A solo Flute in a large empty room sounds wonderful (Paul Horn in the Taj Mahal, for example) but put the entire band: drums, bass, keyboards, flute, singer, crunch guitars, in that same room and it sounds horrible. Why? Because all the instruments together change our perception of HOW MUCH reverberation is enough. So not even by "Parameter with Voice" are all the parameters from VOICE mode brought into your Studio MIXING setup. That will never happen. It is important to understand the selected parameters that are brought along - they are not deep programming they are ornamental (arps) or offsets (cutoff/res) - those you can get to without officially pressing the EDIT button. When you EDIT the filter - down deep, that is one thing. Turning the CUTOFF knob is really just tweaking the deeper programming (making sense) - the Knob controls are OFFSETS mainly, they + (add) or - (subtract) values from what is stored down in deeper editing!

The MIXING mode is like the STUDIO CONSOLE. The send amount is determined by the total sound. Your EQ decision will very likely be different when you combine the instrument with others. So when you walk into the Studio - the EQ on the console is initially "flat" - it does not come with the musician from home (unless one of their Insertion Effects happens to be an EQ!)

It works just like the real world analogy I'm giving you. So Parameter with Voice does copy some of the associated/Offset parameters from VOICE mode, it does NOT copy all the parameters because - the MOXF is not multiplied by 16 when you go to MIXING> Yes there are 16 PARTS but logically some of the assets are "shared" by all PARTS, and some parameters are stripped off or reset to flat when you go from HOME (Voice mode) to the STUDIO (Mixing mode)

How you discover what you must do, has everything to do with if you think it is great or it is clumsy. We cannot control that. But hopefully, my explanation helps somewhat as to WHY?

Bad mister,

thanks heaps for a very verbose and comprehensible answer. I truly appreciate the detailing of what your wrote here (as a matter of fact, i re-told the information learned here to a moxf usergroup on FB and got answers from users now understanding it too. I was not alone in the world :-)).

I completely understand the rationale behind how it is divided between voice mode and mixing/multi. When one think about it, i guess we should be happy that the instrument has got the horsepower that it does when "partitioning" it into separate instruments in performance mode (one could only imagine the complexity, not to mention extra hardware, it would mean to have N number of moxf:es in one unit, where each part got all of it :). I havent yet seen an instrument capable of this (altough, my SuperN__a MK_II with its 9 DSPs comes close).

I got a superb answer to my 'why'. The only thing left for me to wish for is that Yamaha considers bringing in the offsets/parameters available when the user flips the 'p.with voice'. Of course, knowing how it works now, it is very easy to handle it, but it might still be a "nice to have".

Thank you sir

Yes, to the point. The Parameter with Voice does not activate the copy macro, rather it is setup so that you must first turn it ON, and then when the selection is made the activity takes place. A little clumsy - but a nice workaround to the alternative (which would be to manually gather the 7 sets of parameters in question)

I don't think even when there are enough resources (horsepower) in products, that it would be necessary or even desirable to have each VOICE with its own complete set of processing that followed it to your multi-timbral setup!!! Reason: Music is mostly experienced in a single room. So the "shared" concept for SYSTEM is real - not based on a limitation of any kind - it is PREFERRED!

It is actually disturbing to hear a recording where it is obvious that each instrument is in a separate (unique) sounding Reverb chamber. You lose all perception of "ensemble". If the violins sound like they are in a different room from the violas, its not natural. If the guitar is so very different from the piano. Reverb is the experience of all the instruments in the *same* room - even if there is "more or less" amounts of reverb (which helps us position things closer or farther away), the fact that the reflection time and general timbre of the reverb is consistent, gives us a feeling of "ensemble" in an actual acoustic environment. So even when you have enough horsepower to do separate reverb chambers of each instrument - doesn't mean you should.

Listen closely to your favorite mixes for how reverb is used (and not used)!