Rod,
What is a CATEGORY LIBRARY? What is "Sub Library". No such term exists in Montage. So it is difficult to understand what you are actually talking about.

If you saved them what was the little box "Contents Type" set to. I can only deal with the system as it is designed. I'm going to assume it was "Library File" which should create a .X7L file.

The word "BACKUP" is now a "Contents Type" that backs up the entire Montage (everything) - this File Type will allow you to move your Montage content (all of it) to a different Montage. It creates a file .X7A

You've confused yourself (and me) by creating your own method and terms. Try to explain what you want to do. The contents (what Performance are) is of no consequence...in other words if they are pianos or Song flutes... what matters is the File TYPE.
When you say a file has disappeared, remember, depending on the "Contents Type" setting, you will be able to view only data that the Montage can Load. You cannot Load a .X7U file to a Library. So if your "Contents Type" is set to "User File" you will not be able to see .X7L files. Montage cannot load .X7U to a Library location. (Right?) Are you clear about that fact?

You can't see any .doc file, nor any .pdf file etc., because the Montage only shows you files it can do something with according to your "Contents Type" setting. This is called context sensitivity.

Hello BM - exactly! I didn't know it was possible. Concentrating on the 'Category Library' - this is a Library that contains only the contents of one Category, and I did this by deleting all other Pfs from the User area, leaving only my Piano sounds (in this instance). There are currently 155 of them. though half of those are Yamaha Pre-sets and the Bosendorfer. So the Montage 'Category Search' page was set to 'User', Main Category to 'All' - and from there I pressed 'HOME' - 'UTILITY' - 'Contents' - 'Save/Store' ... then I set the 'Contents Type' to 'Library File' (what I want to save them as) - I want to create a new Library on the USB out of the currently selected User files on the Montage. Is that not how it works? I've done it many times in the past without problems. Anyway, on this occasion it behaved normally - I gave the new Library a name, and off it went saving the files as usual (the red progress bar). But when it had finished - there was no sign of the new Library on the USB. It was not there. I found later that it had hidden itself (as a 'sub-Library') inside the Bosendorfer Library ... so when I tapped on the Bosendorfer Library to re-load it into the Montage, I got a short list of 3 things - Bosendorfer pdf Bosendorfer Library and my newly created 'Piano Library'. I have no idea how or why that happened, which is basically what I'm asking you!

On my USB are several Libraries (plus boxes labelled 'Volume information' - 'Text' - and 'Video' that do nothing if tapped) and a box labelled 'Sounds' which when tapped, disgorges 5 other Libraries I have downloaded at various times.Again. I don't know why they're in that 'Sounds' box? Should they be? And if not, how do I get them out and listed with the rest?

Sorry about 'Back-Up' - I understand it now means a specific File whereas I was using it in its original sense. So what are old-style back-up files officially called now? Is there a proper term?

Stay well ...

Rod wrote:
I found later that it had hidden itself (as a 'sub-Library') inside the Bosendorfer Library ... so when I tapped on the Bosendorfer Library to re-load it into the Montage, I got a short list of 3 things - Bosendorfer pdf Bosendorfer Library and my newly created 'Piano Library'. I have no idea how or why that happened, which is basically what I'm asking you!

What you are describing as a "sub-library" is not a library at all. It is a directory on the USB stick. You can also say it's a sub-directory (of root). A basic file system has two things: 1) Files - which is data, and 2) Directories - which are containers for the data. Directories can contain both files and other directories - which is what a creates a "tree" of directories. Directories are organized in a hierarchy with something called "root" at the top (a directory with no name) - then sub-directories under root, and sub-directories inside those sub-directories

When you go to save a library, if you click on anything with a name - and Montage does not warn about overwriting - instead it just "goes" somewhere else after clicking on the name - then you're clicking on a sub-directory and telling Montage the next save you do should be placed within that sub-directory.

It's not hidden, it's listening to your command to place the save file within that sub-directory (also called "folder" in more modern GUI speak).

Take your USB stick out of Montage and plug it into a computer. Then "click" on the USB drive within your computer to show the contents. There are different ways to do this depending on what kind of computer you have - but hopefully you know how to list the files on your USB stick when it's plugged into your computer. Study the "file structure" of the USB stick - since hopefully you're more familiar with the computer's way of presenting the same information. Look for the "Text" "Video" and "Sounds" directories/files. "Volume Information" is a way to label any USB drive. On the computer, you can edit what the volume name is (maybe you can change it to "My Montage Data"). Then next time you put the same USB stick in Montage the "Volume Information" should show "My Montage Data". This is a way to remind you what should be on the USB stick - since you can't "see" the USB stick which is plugged in behind the keyboard (and know - "oh, the blue stick is my montage data" and "the red stick is my firmware update stick"). Instead, you could modify the volume labels with any text you want so this will show up under "Volume Information". When you format a stick, you need to re-do the volume information since it's cleared when a format is done.

When you have the USB stick plugged into your computer - and you're milling around the files and directories - you can jot down what you find and make notes of how the files and directories are organized on the USB stick. In a way that makes sense to you. Then when you plug the same stick into the Montage - you should see the same names - presented slightly differently (because Montage is not your computer - different operating system and interface). But your notes should be able to "match up" what you see so you can start to learn how Montage shows files vs. directories vs. other information.

When it comes to how you save your library files on a USB stick - there's no "should". When you save a file on your USB stick connected to Montage - you can place the file in any sub-directory (Sounds - this is just a sub-directory that you at some point named Sounds or a ZIP file had that sub-directory and it was generated when you "un-zipped", or root, or anywhere). I'm sure it lets you create sub-directories too - I don't have my Montage setup right now. This is an organization thing - and you can organize your files however you want. If you do not want to deal with going to sub-directories - place everything on "root" (default). If you have to press anything to "see" your files - then this is a sub-directory and not root. You can "move" your files from the sub-directory back to root then delete the sub-directory if you want everything to be available without drilling down.

Hello Jason, and thanks. I see part of my confusion was my own fault - I'd added the 'Text' and 'Video' boxes myself when unclear as to what did what, and backed them up to the Montage USB instead of the computer USB. Now sorted, and other stuff re-arranged so I know what's where. Still don't know HOW the Piano Library got stored in the Bosendorfer folder (now removed), but it's something I'll remember for the future! Pity the computer can't read Montage files - I take back-ups (what are they called now?) fairly often in view of my experiments often going pear-shaped, and lose track of what's on what. Must figure out a system - maybe dates? Deleted a fair few I'm pretty sure are history, so now a much happier bunny. A good tip, blitzing the back-up USB on the computer occasionally.

Keep well ...

You may, in the future, use a better filename when you save things that will indicate what is contained in the files - or keep notes of what is contained in the files in the same journal you use to jot down "how to" items related to Montage. A spiral notebook works for this - or you could use technology and type it up in a document.

Rod, maybe try uploading your X7U or X7L file to the following location:

http://jyamaha.alwaysdata.net/

This website just analyzes the X7U or X7U and prints out the performance names as well as gives a count of how many waveforms are stored in the file (UPDATE: and also the waveform names). It doesn't store your data - all data is thrown away. The host only allows for 100MB of storage, so that limits the upload size.

I cannot promise it will work for all cases, but (assuming it works for your data) may be a worthwhile tool to sort out what's stored on your X7L and X7U files without having to use Montage.

Feel free to provide any feedback.

Since the original parser always was fed library files and user files with waveforms - it did not check that the file was missing waveforms (empty) and would throw some errors if a file was submitted without waveforms. This has been fixed.

There will likely be more issues as it hasn't seen a huge variety of files.

Hello Jason - working on it! Thanks for the 'Always' thing - that's handy anyway. Been away again so haven't got any further, hope for another go at it tomorrow ...

FYI: http://jyamaha.alwaysdata.net/ has been updated with drag/drop support and now shows progress of file upload. If, for whatever reason the old more simple interface is preferred (like using a very old machine/browser), then there is http://jyamaha.alwaysdata.net/simple.html

Hi Jason,

tried it, worked like a charm for my X7U file. Great work!

How did you do it, follow the file format in the manual and write a parser for it? I shied away from that for now, I found it really lacking in information (or I just did not understand the descriptions). Or did you just do some more informal grepping type search? If the first is this code you could share? I would like to do some analysis tool which tells me which samples for a library are used in my user performances. This would be handy in trying to draw in all samples I need from libraries so that my user memory is self contained. I would of course rather have that in the Montage itself, but having it offline would be a huge improvement.

Thanks!

There is no file format "manual" that I could find. The work involves many hours of work dating back to the ES-series. An online web-based application is all I am willing to share at the moment. Really, I've been "sitting" on this development because I thought other more official PC-based tools would already have been released by now (librarian, waveform utility, editor, etc). I see mention of this "easter egg" stuff that we cannot program at all - either through Montage or any other method - and I'd like to be able to take the training wheels off.

As I've mentioned before, user performances have a flag which advertises the source of the waveform files. I had spelled this out from the bulk dump tables near the end of the data list.

Here's the link to that discussion: https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/recognize-user-performances-that-use-library-waveforms#reply-17958

I'm glad the utility worked for you and hope there is some benefit. Of course a simple listing tool is just the surface of what is possible - but I saw at least one user who expressed wanting to be able to get such a listing for USB stick cataloging purposes.

I've also suggested Yamaha be more open about the format because the DX7, which enjoyed such popularity, had a lot of various editors that different people made for different platforms (Atari, Commodore, etc) which helped provide a complementary ecosystem and certainly helped to assist in sales and overall appeal.

The software development model today is even more geared towards open+community applications where open software is sometimes preferred over the commercial counterpart - and not always on the basis of cost alone. Linux, for example, has such a reputation for strong stability that even Yamaha uses it for the OS of choice going back a ways. There are lots of examples of open software platforms that rival commercial software in terms of popularity and utility. The community involvement fosters innovation and can be more responsive to the needs of its users. Plus, enabling open source means the community developers are not on payroll. A double edged sword - but "free" developers I would think wins over the marginally tighter control you have over employees.

"Free" in quotes mainly because any time you release documentation - you have to field questions (and fix documentation errors/etc) - which takes time/resources. Probably a light lift relative to the potential benefit.

Hi Jason,

thanks again. The "manual" I was referring to was the bulk dump tables list you also mention. I presume that this basically specifies the format in the files as well - I might be wrong. But that "specification" I found lacking too much detail. And I agree that it would be great to have a spec. I would immediately do some tools around it...

The bulk dump tables are only partially informative as the file backup format does not follow the same ordering. Also, backup files have more information which is not documented anywhere.

The data list (parameter tables) is best used for assembling SysEx messages from external controllers to modify parameters and also to document what different settings are for when programming using Montage (when number ranges are not always spelled out what they do using the Montage GUI).

Stefan wrote:
And I agree that it would be great to have a spec. I would immediately do some tools around it...

Yes me also.