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Still nada from Yamaha on fixing the rotary simulation?

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david
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Yamaha might want to refer to their own IdeaScale for the priority issues concerning the YC series.

I still think the "OS and unit expandability" claim is a bait and switch sales tactic or advertising gimmick making us think substantial improvements and content are forthcoming.

In reality it's just a very inconsequential feature and not a major benefit and the OS update is often in place for error corrections and not necessarily expansion like they make it appear.

IdeaScale is just a platform to blow off steam like Yamaha cares that much about our complaints or wishes. I don't buy it as legit.

The business end and the money is the god controlling any decisions for change so we're being appeased is all.

I bought both the YC61 and YC73 and almost every other Yamaha board so I've earned the right to say they suck at promises and sales gimmicks.

To be fair they have never once admitted to the rotary issue so they think it's all good. Nothing to fix if it isn't broken in their eyes.

I'm sort of indifferent to it but SKpro seems to have gone the extra mile for rotary customization so it can be done. It's just an effect.

I hope they make lots of money off the YC so we can get real improvements.

The promise of expansion or expandability in advertising should be reserved only for "significant expansion" and not just a few voices every 6 months. That's lame IMO.

I like what's on YC but just hope the platform is capable of much more. Because it's classified as "stage" is a certain curse that nothing more is forthcoming.

 
Posted : 08/03/2021 6:25 pm
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"It's just an effect" says someone who has probably never engineered an effect. 😉 FWIW, the effect is in a myriad of pedals, but the only one that does a great job at it costs $500. That said, I'm quite impressed with the rotary effect built into the relatively low cost Numa Organ 2. Though besides being from a budget-gear company, they also benefit from the fact that, for $1,300, they give you nothing else except organ. The YC61 gives you an awful lot more for it's additional $700, though yeah, I really do hope to see an improved rotary effect, even if it isn't as good as Numa's or Neo's.

As for how much attention Yamaha's engineering or marketing people give to postings on ideascale, I don't know. But whatever it is, it is probably way more attention than they pay to anything posted on this forum. Yamaha's presence here is just for support, not for product design. So really, probably all you're doing here is complaining to fellow users like yourself, not to anyone who might be able to do anything about it.

 
Posted : 08/03/2021 6:47 pm
Jason
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Ideascale is the most direct line to the engineering team. I'll often use both resources as sometimes I feel the need to float ideas here first. Usually in the form of double-checking I haven't missed a feature as the reason I think something can be improved. And, as a secondary, to start some discussion to see if I'm on an island with a wish. I think both channels are useful. And even if this isn't the best channel for discussing perceived shortcomings - I do think that, in aggregate, posts here contribute (however small) some to the evolutionary momentum.

As positive feedback, Yamaha has been very tolerant of any kind of feedback here. Even when it gets, shall we say, salty. The transparency in user feedback or lack of censorship is something to be commended. I can point to examples (other product support forums) where nearly the opposite is done - and I don't feel that approach leads to making anyone happy and doesn't serve understanding or the product's growth. Glad to be a part of the constructive environment here under Yamaha's synthesizer tent.

 
Posted : 08/03/2021 8:36 pm
david
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The FM engine is a $500 upcharge generally. I like it, just need more of it like an editor. Bet the farm it can't be done because it's classified as a "stage".

The FM on CP1 is amazing but you get (4) voices. 4 total voices! I'm not sure how they dumb it down but it's a fixed algorithm parameter that can't be changed.

Seems like an enormous waste of resources because it's advertised as a true FM engine. It's like putting a 4 cylinder inside of a Lamborghini.

It has the looks and appeal but goes nowhere fast. "Stage" is a certain curse.

Think about how many players would cross-over to stage if you could expand it and customize it.

 
Posted : 08/03/2021 10:08 pm
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david, your understanding of corporate channelling of communications through things like IdeaScale (there are many other similar platforms, sadly) is about spot on.

This has long been a strategy of the majority of companies determined to avoid direct consumer product designer engagement and the subsequent empowerment of a product manager that's ultimately required to speak with the market through determined product design.

Instead, Yamaha seem to be favouring engineering led initiatives and directions.

This has benefits. And very annoying, frequently encountered and long overlooked shortcomings.

Like the famous Dunning - Kruger study, those that don't know the problems don't know how to asses the importance of the problems, nor which opinions to consider.

So things like IdeaScale, whilst they seem to present a surface of democracy, don't help, because the voices are all existing customers willing to use the terms and facilities of communications the company provides, about existing products. Which is the group to be least considered in a cold, hard, engineering led consideration of issues, since clearly the product was good enough for this group to have already parted with monies to Yamaha.

Yet engineering led companies are also none the wiser about what updates and modifications can draw in new customers, and what might get those procrastinating to jump in.

So you get feature list (sometimes called "checkpoint") marketing.

Perhaps Samsung's Android's phones have been the greatest demonstration of this approach. Unfortunately, they've also had some success with this approach.

Which has justified the approach on new levels of scale, for many other companies using variations of this approach.

 
Posted : 09/03/2021 12:54 pm
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I think in the case of the current poor rotary sim in the YC series, Yamaha are well aware of the complaints people have made ... it is well ahead - vote wise - of any other comment in the YC Ideascale forum.

As you say, Yamaha are probably not much concerned about those of us who have already purchased, but in the current very competitive 'clone wheel' stage keyboard marketplace, a reputation for a poor rotary sim must surely affect the prospects for future sales?
This type of keyboard will understandably only have a fairly small - almost 'niche' internet presence, so most prospective customers will have encountered the negative comments about the poor YC rotary sim before they purchase...

I'm beginning to think that - put simply - Yamaha simply don't have in house technical expertise to make a decent 'Leslie' simulation?
They have a pretty poor track record on that feature, in several models over the years.

As Neo have shown, creating decent Leslie sims is possible, but clearly not easy. IK Multimedia's software version in their B-3X product is also impressive..... but that's about it for top class Leslie sims!

The YC rotary sim seems to have the right idea -- the slow speed is not that bad - but the crossover is poorly defined, and the lower rotor is very weak.
By far the biggest issue is the 'squirlly' fast speed effect.

The lack of any rotary sim update since the YC release suggests that maybe this a big problem for them to resolve?
Or --maybe they're just not too concerned anyway?

Sales figures for stage keyboards are likely to have been quite badly affected by the pandemic, so Yamaha won't have a realistic assessment of just how much the poor rotary sim is currently affecting sales...

 
Posted : 09/03/2021 1:46 pm
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That last sentence reverberates.

Consider Nikon... they've stalled out the release of their top tier camera body and lenses for a little while, because the Olympics were delayed and much other opportunities for use of their products are reduced.

 
Posted : 09/03/2021 2:08 pm
Posts: 803
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So things like IdeaScale, whilst they seem to present a surface of democracy, don't help, because the voices are all existing customers willing to use the terms and facilities of communications the company provides, about existing products. Which is the group to be least considered in a cold, hard, engineering led consideration of issues, since clearly the product was good enough for this group to have already parted with monies to Yamaha.

OTOH, I left numerous YC61 suggestions on Ideascale after determining that I would not be buying it, despite all the things I liked about it. And while it might be true that most commenters do own the product, even hearing the wishes from people who did buy it could inform Yamaha as to why other people may have considered buying it and ultimately chose not to. It still points out areas of potental weakness, which if improved, could lead to more sales. (And presumably Ideascale is not the only source of market research that Yamaha does.)

 
Posted : 09/03/2021 2:37 pm
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... It still points out areas of potential weakness, which if improved, could lead to more sales....

Yamaha simply can't have missed seeing all the negative comments about the YC rotary - and I'm pretty sure it will affect sales - if it hasn't already.

I'm inclined more and more to believe that Yamaha simply don't have the necessary 'analogue' electronic design skills in house to come up with a decent rotary upgrade...

(You watch -- there will be a spectacular YC rotary sim upgrade in the next update - within the next few weeks - to prove me wrong! 🙂

Or possibly not?.......

 
Posted : 09/03/2021 8:04 pm
david
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Topic starter
 

The lesser vote was for additional keys. Not necessarily a vote for a deviation away from waterfall action.

Not sure what led to that decision although I do like the standard version on the YC73 because the waterfall felt cheap IMO. However, the YC61 portability is the best feature.

Yamaha jumped all over that going into full production mode on 73/88 while leaving the sim deficient. That was strange and very odd.

Not sure why it's taking this long but perhaps they will release the end all be all of rotary sims for YC. I might not hold my breath.

More frustrating is no indication whatsoever that they are even working on it. That's extremely poor customer relations.

We have the IdeaScale platform but no Yamaha engineering rep. replying back to the consumer on progress so what's the point of it really?

If I'm independently comparing (2) organ focused boards for an investment I'm going to the Yamaha forum to hear it from the fan boys what sucks about it before I decide which to buy.

Yamaha did beat Hammond to the release this year. I still don't have my SKpro to compare.

I sort of believe Yamaha's other voices will be better, FM etc. but still want to mess around with the organ options and customizations in SKpro.

Basically I'm looking for that "X" factor or "FF" (fun factor) and who wins the day. YC is pretty fun IMO but could be a lot better.

 
Posted : 10/03/2021 4:00 am
Posts: 803
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More frustrating is no indication whatsoever that they are even working on it. That's extremely poor customer relations.

How often do you hear Korg, Roland, Hammond, Numa, Nord, et al reply to an online request for a feature/improvement and announce that they are working on it? Companies generally do not do this, so I'd say Yamaha is not lagging in this respect. Actually, of all these companies, I think Yamaha is the only one where you can post an operational question in a forum, and hear back from someone from the company telling you how to get a function to do what you want it to (if it can). In that respect, I might very well say that Yamaha leads the pack in customer relations. Those other companies don't have forums like this where you are likely to get these questions answered by the manufacturer. And while Ideascale may not be perfect, there are at least occasionally responses from someone at Yamaha. Those other companies don't even have that,

 
Posted : 10/03/2021 4:47 am
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In the case of most other brands, there are easily discoverable ways to directly communicate with decision makers, and get personal responses to specific questions.

Yamaha is not the best at communication. Not even near to it.

Suggesting that a deliberately opaque and non-indexed ideascale is anything but deliberate obfuscation and avoidance of direct contact is not understanding how and why corporations use these sorts of facilities.

 
Posted : 10/03/2021 7:16 am
Posts: 803
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In the case of most other brands, there are easily discoverable ways to directly communicate with decision makers, and get personal responses to specific questions.

Say you send an email. Maybe you get a good answer, maybe you get a bad answer, maybe you get no answer. Not being public, nobody else can offer alternate responses, and nobody else can search for or generally benefit from the answer that was provided to you. Yamaha similarly has email support (and facebook, twitter, chat, and phone... some of which some others may have and others do not), but the addition of this forum puts their support level above others. I also would question your suggestion that most brands offer easily discoverable ways to speak, not just to some level of support, but specifically to decision makers. Assuming the decision makers even speak English, they're unlikely to be fielding contacts from end users, at least if they are in one of the bigger companies.

But to the other point ("More frustrating is no indication whatsoever that they are even working on it. That's extremely poor customer relations." )... even contacting these other companies, they are highly unlikely to tell you that they are working on adding something--not yet publicly announced--to address your request for some feature or other operational improvement.

 
Posted : 10/03/2021 1:14 pm
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Yamaha's IdeaScale is not searchable or discoverable via Google or any other search engine.

It's a virtualised exclusion zone, where only the diehards know to go.

That's part of the point of these little gardens.

 
Posted : 10/03/2021 1:39 pm
Posts: 803
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Yamaha's IdeaScale is not searchable or discoverable via Google or any other search engine.

When I was talking about the benefits of searchability, I was talking about the support side of customer relations... this forum is google searchable.

Ideascale has its limitations, but I think your criticism is more about Yamaha's responsiveness to it than with the format itself. I still think, as small as it may be, a post there probably has at least a bit more possibility of having some impact than an email to anyone you could reach at, at a minimum, any of the other big Japanese manufacturers (i.e. Korg, Roland, Casio, Kawai). You might have more of a shot if contacting some of the smaller "boutique" companies.

 
Posted : 10/03/2021 2:07 pm
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