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It doesn't take an Osmose. Different MIDI devices with keyboards have different relationships of how "hard" it is perceived to strike a key vs the velocity value produced. Just about any MIDI keyboard will be different. Even controlling the YC with other Yamaha products will change the feel. That's not the long and short of it - the mechanics of the keys and the tactile feedback you get can play a part too. The change of resistance of the key/spring/etc over time and such.

This is true for all electronic devices that support externally connecting a keyboard (using MIDI). You may even find a MIDI controller that plays the Osmose "better" (judgement call) than the Osmose's own keyboard. Similar to what you're saying here about the Osmose's impact to the YC.

There are even MIDI devices that allow for you to very surgically edit the velocity response of each key individually. This is sort of the ultimate in flexibility. And connecting such a controller to your YC will show the same benefits.

Certainly if the YC (or any other synth) would add the capability to create a "user velocity curve" - then this would probably solve all of the shortcomings between the few built-in curves and your playing. I'd love to see this kind of thing but there is a sliding scale of usability vs. flexibility. If there was a way to define a user curve - then there's certainly a way to present a novel to fill in vs. cliff notes. And the "novel" approach (as in long long story -- or lots and lots of options/settings) may be harder to use and a pain vs. a scaled down presentation with less flexibility. Right now, I think the presets are a little too rigid to make you happy (which is fair).

.Not spam now that I added the 1st line.

They are different as the CK from Yamaha is also different, like it mentioned it's hot or aggressive. Originally it excites you but soon becomes too much or statically stuck on loud. My CP1 has dynamics but I haven't compared them or connected them.

I asked the question in so many words why would Yamaha release a pro level board with dead dynamics? It doesn't showcase the guts of their hard work inside. I do understand that if it's expensive that's a reason. I don't really know if it's expensive but the Osmose is obviously more costly to create apart from the MIDI only signaling. If it's MIDI only signaling why is that hard to fix? They are masters if not the largest corporation of musical instruments on earth. It must be expensive and so we only get an average result.

Like putting a 4 cylinder inside a Vet. So the keys are there and make it play notes (move) but you are only hearing or receiving half of what it can actually do. Like it has a limiter placed on the sound engine. Why would we only want to hear half the sound? It's just not logical for all the effort inside the machine. We want the most we can get 100% of the time. Lots of players might not buy it because it doesn't move them emotionally when they audition it. "Gives a false impression of itself" is a good way to describe that.

Same effect as to audition it, like at Guitar Center, using a $20 set of off-brand monitors. It is going to sound like crap. So thinking logically that if Yamaha is fully aware it sounds half as good and is okay with that then it has to cost more money to make it sound 100%, 100% of the time. Also why does the customer have to investigate how to fix it when out-of-the-box it should be fantastic?

It's interesting, one, that I'm just figuring this out, I intuitively sensed it because all my boards behave differently, but didn't realize it's like night and day until you have the pleasure of testing the result on something like the Osmose. Also interesting that this is what manufacturer's are okay with being mediocre.

I just realized I need to hook my Fantom to Osmose because it also plays somewhat dead I believe. I have not investigated any curves on the Fantom but like with most of these machines it would seem that the key action is an afterthought instead of an aftertouch that kills it. Most levers with on/off and hard bottoming out are just really bad. My ASM has polytouch and it bottoms out and although it can do more it still feels no different from anything else. The feel goes a long way and some players might not like it. They might still prefer the traditional piano action but I can guarantee what they don't want are dead keys.

IF this was doable and inexpensive every board would have unlimited dynamics to fully showcase the guts of the system. So really how much does it cost and why don't they do it OR just leave off the keys so we can all buy the controller we want? Seems like the keys might just be included like with $200 shoes that have $1 shoestrings and the first thing you do is replace those. They do it because everyone else does it but the interaction between your player's heart, soul and the music are the freak'n keys! I just think it's time to move on and build better keys or leave them off completely. The real advantage with that is the design budget can fully focus on the guts, UI, DSP/DAC, electronic path and engines, etc. IF a good DAC about the size of waffle costs $1,000 we know what's inside these synths is not really very good. And that is still the price directly from China, not like we're making it here and 4 screws cost $20. Supply and demand is probably actually higher for the DAC.

Osmose pulled off both the action and the engine so it's not unattainable at $1,800 but it does need improvement or greater reliability. If it was nothing but 76 keys for half the cost that's reasonable and imagine what a Montage 2 module could do with full power and full prowess with 4 or 5 separate engines that don't steal from one another? Obviously Yamaha could make the separate controller but not sure it'd be as affordable. As that song suggests "Dream On!" but Osmose is on the path. Incorporate that technology into a full blown workstation and figure out how to develop AWM2 into MPE or MIDI 2. The Matrix is capable of some very realistic and very broad flavors. I did realize it's greatly accented by the backing instruments or fundamental chord because that really makes it pop. Sounds great alone but mix it into the music it gets even better.

I started testing each of the YC voices beginning with the RD EP that have a very distinctive growl when struck hard. Obviously we don't want that growl on every level of touch. The lightest touch is a delicate bell tone and medium touch is a fully rounded body tone and the hard strike is an aggressive growl. On the YC you almost lose the entire growl portion of the tone. The "Funky" voice doesn't really sound much different because you lose the funky nuance. I often played past that voice because it sounded no different. In fact most of the RD all sound very similar on the YC. On the Osmose they sound much different like what I think was the original design intent. If conveyance is lost the 8 different voices might as well just be the same single voice. I'm going to try every voice but mostly interested in what the EP and pianos are doing. I've had a history of asking why we needed more pianos and EPs and that's because they sound too similar. Maybe they aren't too similar it's just that the conveyance is the problem.

So then I turned the touch sensitivity to max (inside the "sound" option) and the dynamics returned. Problem is you have to change it for every part of every voice unless they add a global option. Why limit the quality of your sound out of the box to medium or half when you can NOT do that? Why would you want to? Set them all to maximum and then let the player dial them back. Makes no sense. So all this only to discover they did it intentionally in the settings. It literally cuts off the lower samples which are often the more exciting ones. So go turn up to around 120 from 64 and hear a better instrument.

Even so once now plays hot at 120 to 128 so it doesn't dial back very easy. I guess that's where the curves come into play but the ones they have don't seem to make much difference. Osmose is still better or provides greater dynamic control from high to low.

When I dial it up to 120-128 on the YC then the Osmose plays nothing but the maximum sensitivity and all dynamics is lost. MIDI is sending out the sensitivity change which the Osmose doesn't need to receive. Thus 64 depth and 64 is prefect for the MIDI out to Osmose. For the YC it's not ideal and then you have to change it for every single voice of every live set. That's not helpful.

This must be what it's like when people talk to themselves.

This must be what it's like when people talk to themselves.

The thread and topic belong to him. So he is free to post any comments or questions that he deems appropriate to the thread.

"Belongs to him" really are you sure that is how ownership works? I never said anything about 'belonging', or that he is not free to post comments or questions. Why do you feel it necessary to post a comment? I've noticed that you seem to have some compulsion to make irrational comments on many threads. Maybe it's a medication issue. 🙂

Why do you feel it necessary to post a comment?

Because you spammed his thread.

Your comment contributed NOTHING to the topic OP posted.

Yes - I'm sure that the person that creates the thread 'owns' it. They are the one that determines the topic to be discussed. There is nothing irrational about it.

Please follow the forum guidelines
https://www.yamahasynth.com/learn/news/forum-etiquette-for-yamahasynth

The forum is not only a place to get assistance—it’s also a place to engage in the discussion.

I was typing a lot trying to fix this and posted before I figured it out. A board is inspiring when you play through all 500 voices every time you turn it on and can't turn it off. I'm not even good player but it's so inspiring it will make you better. Expressive is an understatement but YC does really ground the Osmose as would any Yamaha board you have handy. The Osmose forced me to return the CK just because it's all I play currently and I use the YC layered so no reason to have both. When "Montage 2" arrives the Osmose will make it shine. All in good fun. I hope someone with an Osmose will confirm my thoughts.

[quotePost id=122048]Then I played the YC73 on it's own keys and it was dead as a door nail. [/quotePost]The first of this series of boards that I purchased was a CP73... I returned it because I thought it felt really dead to play. But in a software update, they added much more control over the velocity response. By then, the YC73 had come out, so I bought that... and indeed, with those new adjustments (velocity offset and depth), it plays MUCH better.

[quotePost id=122048]Someone will respond and say you have to go into the menu and change this and that etc. but why?[/quotePost]I don't know why, but I'm glad it was addressed. Wondering why things aren't better in the first place may be of academic interest, but is not very productive in terms of the presumed goal... making music. As long as I can get acceptable results without much difficulty, I'm content.

[quotePost id=122048]I mean you could crank it up but it's the dynamic range (won't improve) like Osmose going from silent soft and ceiling caving thunderous depending on your touch....Osmose just improved their product by 100% . If you barely touch it, it's so silent and if you hit it the roof caves in. Where he hell has this been on Yamaha boards?[/quotePost]This is not necessarily a good thing. I was using a Casio PX-5S, which is a cool keyboard, but I really disliked how the pianos played... the dynamic range was kind of as you explain it... which I found to feel artificially large, with a bigger difference between the quietest and loudest tones than you could actually achieve on a real piano. It made it hard to control dynamics in a natural manner, or at least what would be a natural manner if you had grown up playing a real piano. Notes could too easily disappear to a lower level than intended, or jump out to a higher one. Nicely, a Casio rep tweaked some parameters and posted an alternate version on their forum, which had a couple of modifications, including "a narrower amplitude range which makes it easier to control." So whether what you are describing as something you like is actually a good thing could be a very much a subjective judgement. Yamaha is not necessarily "doing this wrong" by comparison, even if you don't like it as much.

I understand that can be true however I almost think the hard strike samples (however waveforms are implemented) is completely lost or never triggers. It wasn't only about volume dynamics. I heard it first using the Osmose as the controller than I had to dial the YC up to 120 to hear it. But then the YC was too hot like you are describing and I didn't like it. Somehow a balance is getting lost. Like the gain was cranked up but the range was unnatural. Maybe after that I need to set the curve back to normal. A better description is that we need a natural triggering of the corresponding samples within a waveform at the appropriate volume levels.

IF YC had an issue then on CK they appeared to increase the gain (still called or identified as level 64) but it played hotter than the YC at 64. When I MIDI'd those together I had to set the CK to 128 for the YC to play or control it correctly. The YC doesn't have a global fix besides the touch options, you have to go into every part and save it as a live set.

I ordered the YC73 myself to test out the keybed, while the keybed felt great the dynamics of the sounds including the organ were drastically changed even with running the same patches that I used on my YC61.

I thought I was going crazy, spent an entire day comparing each patch I create and the YC61 has a better dynamic than the YC73.

It seemed as if the YC73 is alpt more compressed and dare I say drier than the YC61.

Unfortunately I had to send my YC73 back. Very disappointed

Yeah something was wrong with the design or even the sensors, action, behavior etc. I liked the build quality of the YC73 it was far more professional but what should never happen is that with a larger form factor and higher grade version sounds worse than the base model. It shouldn't be released at all until that's been fixed. Obviously they had in production and then there was no going back.

[quotePost id=122839]I ordered the YC73 myself to test out the keybed, while the keybed felt great the dynamics of the sounds including the organ were drastically changed even with running the same patches that I used on my YC61. [/quotePost]
Organ dynamics do not respond to velocity, the dynamics are controlled by your use of the expression pedal. So it sounds like something else is going on there, it's not a matter of different feeling keys.

YC series are not actually organs they are really just stage boards/synths with different key options. It's only an organ focused board but not actually an organ or only an organ. The YC73 has semi-weighted piano keys but the 88 maybe graded hammer but then added more sensors. In reality the 73 should have had more sensors if it couldn't handle the dynamic range properly. I got more samples to trigger by increasing the sensitivity which should have to happen. It's a strange board but plays much different using the Osmose controller.