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Help programming the Mod Wheel (MW)

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I have a MODX8 and I am slowly learning how to program the performances, but I ran into a problem while trying to program a Part Assign Knob to one of the Common Assign Knobs (the MW). I'm going off of thisthis forum post (side note, yamahasynth.com/forum super buggy right now? I've had trouble viewing content posting this post). And also this video tutorial. I'm noticing when you try to program to the common knobs, the MW is not an option. I want the mod wheel to control the speed of the rotor of the hammond organ when I first load the program and not have to select part 9 to get the MW to work. It seems MW is not considered one of the "common knobs." Does that mean this isn't possible?

 
Posted : 14/07/2022 2:28 pm
Jason
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Part Level Assignable Knobs are controllers that can be assigned to destinations. Destinations are primarily parameters such as volume, effects, pan, ... lots of settings.

The modwheel is also a controller that, likewise, can be assigned to destinations which are parameters.

With two exceptions - you cannot assign a controller to modulate another controller. The only exception is Super Knob which itself is a special controller. Super Knob can be connected (official term is "linked" ) to the COMMON Assignable Knobs. And the second controller that can modulate another controller is that the COMMON Assignable Knobs can have PART Assignable Knobs as destinations. These are the only exceptions. Otherwise, no other controller can modulate a different controller.

Therefore, you cannot have the modwheel modulate assignable knobs or have assignable knobs modulate the modwheel.

If you want to use assignable knobs to modulate a parameter (or parameters) that the modwheel currently modulates - you can assign the source of all destinations currently set to "modwheel" and assign the source instead to the chosen assignable knob. This would move control away from modwheel and have the assignable knob modulate this/these parameter(s).

OR - you could double up on assignments and have both modwheel and an assignable knob as sources to the same parameters. You would have two different destination numbers - but each of these destinations would be the same parameter. The source for each of these destinations would be different (modwheel for one, assignable knob for another).

Assigning multiple sources to the same destination has implications. Although it works - they work together. So if you turn the modwheel "all the way up" and the assignable knob "all the way down" - then the sum of these two is zero offset. So you see that the position of one will have an impact on the other. Probably a situation you would want to avoid. That said - the option is there assuming you haven't run out of the maximum of 16 destinations.

And yes, the forum has had a rough week. I'm not sure all the kinks are ironed out - but at least the forum is back reasonably intact.

 
Posted : 14/07/2022 4:41 pm
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Jason, are you deliberately avoiding the question?

 
Posted : 14/07/2022 5:53 pm
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This is all definitely useful info (and thank you for it), but, as the other Andrew may be suggesting, I'm not sure your response addresses exactly what I'm trying to do: use the MW to control the rotor speed parameter of part 9 of the performance. It only works correctly when part 9 is selected. I'd like it to work immediately when I load the performance.

 
Posted : 14/07/2022 6:15 pm
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Good point, Bill.

Part 9 is set to send MIDI to another keyboard. So, I have a Nord controlling part 9, which is set as a hammond organ.

 
Posted : 14/07/2022 6:28 pm
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I want to use the Nord as the controller for the organ sound, but use the MW to control the rotor of the organ sound. I have the MODX set (in the utilities somewhere and I forgot how) so that part 9 sends MIDI to the Nord (via a certain MIDI channel I forgot which and I hope it doesn't matter in this scenario). So, the part has to be part 9 unless your point is that the MW can only control parameters of parts 1 through 8. If that's the case, I'd have to change the utilities setting for MIDI and that would screw up a bunch of other performances.

 
Posted : 14/07/2022 7:06 pm
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Sorry, it took some time for me to remember and also look up specifics since it is something I set (and then forgot) eleven months ago. The limiting factor is the Nord Electro 6D (NE6); I miss-remembered it as the MODX. In order for it to play a part on the MODX, the Global MIDI channel of the NE6 must be set (in my case, it's channel 9) to whatever MODX part you want it to play. This setting on the NE6 is not something that is saved within a program, so if I change it, it would screw up a bunch of other songs I have programmed MIDI communication between the Nord and MODX. How I got it done is detailed in this Nord forum discussion. In that scenario, I needed MIDI communications both ways so the Nord was playing the MODX and visa versa. Here is how I got that done (excerpt from the aforementioned link):

To play the MODX' Vox Continental sound from the Nord, place the MODX' Vox Continental sound in a high numbered part, anything between 9 and 16, lets say Part 9. Set the Nord's Global MIDI channel to 9 as well. Now, since the Nord will be sending on channel 9, the Nord will trigger whatever sound has been loaded into Part 9 on the MODX. In most cases, that will be nothing, since by default, Part 9 is always empty unless you put something there. But whenever you want the Nord to play a MODX sound, put that sound in Part 9 of the Performance you want to use. (While it's true that setting the Nord's Global channel to 9 means it not only sends on 9 but also receives on it, that doesn't matter. Since nothing is sending to the Nord on channel 9, the fact that it's receiving on channel 9 won't affect anything.)

To play the Nord's honky tonk piano sound from the Yamaha, place that piano sound in the Nord's LO keyboard zone, and store the program with the "External Keyboard to LO" function enabled. Set the Nord's "External Keyboard to LO" channel to a different channel in that same 9-16 range, let's use channel 16 since that's already the default anyway. Using the Yamaha's Zone Master function, set the MODX so that one of the first 8 Parts of this particular Performance sends on channel 16. (You may want to use one of the first 4 Parts, if you want the Yamaha's "seamless sound switching" function to work when switching to or from this sound.)

I'm realizing that if I can put the hammond organ in one of the first eight parts, but then have it receive MIDI on channel 9, that would solve the problem, wouldn't it?

 
Posted : 14/07/2022 9:49 pm
Jason
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You'll have to give me some grace. I've been helping a family member with some recent medical trauma -- in and out of different hospitals and (mobility) rehab facilities. The phone is not the easiest interface to use -- but I focused on:

I ran into a problem while trying to program a Part Assign Knob to one of the Common Assign Knobs (the MW)
...
I'm noticing when you try to program to the common knobs, the MW is not an option.

Which I interpreted as an attempt to have the Part Assign Knob as the source and Mod Wheel as the destination. That was obviously incorrect. I pretty much stopped there with the read of your message skipping past anything about the Parts (Part 9). But now you're probably on the right track realizing Parts 9-16 will not receive any controller messages unless you select that Part first. The best option for having a controller modulate Parts 9-16 is to use Hybrid or Multi mode (not Single) and send CC#1 to the MIDI channel from an external controller. You can also use the loop-back MIDI cable trick although that has its drawbacks. Where some Part 1-8 will have Zone Control turned on and the MIDI transmit channel set to Part 9. Then the Modwheel will be sent to Part 9 through the loop-back MIDI (5-pin DIN) cable. This assumes you are in MIDI mode and not USB mode. If in USB mode - then the DAW/software would have to provide the "loopback" function to echo back MIDI.

Or you can use Part Assignable Knobs instead of the modwheel and use superknob as a "doesn't matter which Part is selected" controller to do what the modwheel would do. This is not optimum of course if you want the modwheel to modulate all the rest of the Parts 1-8 since the two controllers cannot really be turned in lock step by hand easily and requires, at least, removing hands from the keys and dedicating them to knob turning (if you need both to be pseudo synchronized).

If you don't want to use the loop-back method, the DAW echo-back method, or Super Knob - then you can also use Common Assignable Knobs 1-8 any one of them broken apart from Super Knob (unlinked) so you can use one of the Common Assignable knobs as a baby super knob. This method has the same pitfalls as the Super Knob in terms of how it fits a solution if you need modwheel and the knob to be reasonably in "lock step".

Sometimes I've thought of keyboard control as only applying to the piano keys -- but when keyboard control is OFF (the only state for Parts 9-16) when that Part is not selected then the Keyboard AND Controllers (knobs, buttons, etc) are also not transmitted to that Part. The only exception is that Common Assignable Knobs can reach into Parts 9-16 (even when keyboard control is off) due to the special nature of those controllers. Even Parts not selected with Keyboard Control OFF will respond to changes in Common Assignable Knob twisting assuming that Assignable Knob has Part 9-16's Part Level assignable knob as a destination. That may not be of use to you for this task - but rounds out the discussion.

 
Posted : 14/07/2022 11:10 pm
Antony
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My perception from OP:-

1) OP is using a Nord Keybed to play an Organ Part (Part 9) on the MODX.
It's a Nord, but in reality, could be any MIDI Keyboard.

2) OP wants to use the Mod Wheel on the MODX to adjust the Speed of the Rotary Effect. By implication, this is the Rotary Effect on the MODX.

3) Another presumption is that the Rotary Effect is an "Insert Effect" on Part 9, otherwise all other MODX Parts would be passing through the Rotary (e.g. if it was a Var Effect). The actual case is not made clear.

If my assessment is correct, all the OP needs to do is create a Control Assign at the Part Level, with Mod Wheel Source assigned to Destination "InsA Param 'N' " or "InsB Param 'N' ".

This depends on whether Rotary is in the Insert A position, or the Insert B position.

'N' is the Parameter Number of the Rotary Effect that you wish to control with the ModWheel. These numbers can be found in the Tables on Page 150 of the MODX Data List Manual.

The actual Parameter Number will depend on whether you are using "Rotary 1" or "Rotary 2".

You can assign multiple parameters to the Mod Wheel, and adjust the "Depth" of Modulation by using the Control Assign "Curve" and "Ratio".

My recommendation would be to use the classic "Fast/Slow" control... which is just a Toggle Switch (you may prefer use of Assign Switch 1). You set the Fast and Slow speeds, and the acceleration/deceleration beforehand. You can keep the Rotary "in constant flux" just by timing your "on" and "off".

If you wish to govern the actual Horn and Drum/Rotor Speed at any given time with the Mod Wheel, I recommend experimentation with the "Slow" and "Fast" parameters (4 of them) to set the required feel on the Mod Wheel.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 2:43 am
Antony
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Just a corollary to previous post.

To control Rotary in Real Time with ModWheel.... you do not need to make Assigns to the Assignable Knobs.

You may wish to use Assignable Knobs as Macro's to adjust the (Starting) Slow Speed and (Final) Fast Speed, for example, between Songs.

I "learned" the use of the MODX Rotary by copying the B3 Organ Performance by Rick Wright on Pink Floyd's Another Brick In the Wall solo.

There is a heavy use of Rotary in that piece, and Rick controlled the dynamics by constantly flipping between the Slow and Fast control on his B3. This required a certain amount of anticipation of the "highlights" to allow for the Rotors to speed up in time for the emphasised Bar/Chord. Also, he never allowed the Rotor to completely Slow down or Stop, he kept it "hovering" above Slow, by switching it back to Fast briefly, then back to Slow.

It was a musical juggling act for want of a better word.

I'm not that skilled, but I still found it easier control with the MODX Assign Switch 1 controlling Fast/Slow. I had set/fixed Slow, Fast, Accelerate and Decelerate previously.

By contrast, I had a lot of difficulty setting the right feel by using the Mod Wheel to precisely dictate Horn and Rotor speeds. In any case, I found myself with Mod Wheel full Down, or full Up, so I was using it more like a switch anyway.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 3:07 am
Antony
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[quotePost id=117852]

1) OP is using a Nord Keybed to play an Organ Part (Part 9) on the MODX.
2) OP wants to use the Mod Wheel on the MODX to adjust the Speed of the Rotary Effect. By implication, this is the Rotary Effect on the MODX.

What about the fact that part 9 doesn't have keyboard control enabled?
[/quotePost]

Use Part 8?

I think the Audio of Part 9 still passes from the MODX Tone Generator to the Insert FX, and these can still be controlled by the onboard Controllers.

If they can't... use Part 8.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 3:11 am
Antony
Posts: 0
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[quotePost id=117852]

1) OP is using a Nord Keybed to play an Organ Part (Part 9) on the MODX.
2) OP wants to use the Mod Wheel on the MODX to adjust the Speed of the Rotary Effect. By implication, this is the Rotary Effect on the MODX.

What about the fact that part 9 doesn't have keyboard control enabled?
[/quotePost]

The thing is Bill... I tried to help the guy by framing the issue and offering an immediate "try this and see" solution.

If that solution doesn't work, then going forward we all have a new and better frame of reference, on which to build.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 3:20 am
Antony
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To the point... I am unaware of any reference in the Manuals that says you cannot make Control Assigns on Parts 9-16.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 3:33 am
Antony
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Since I can't find anything that says Controllers (Mod Wheel, Pitch Bend etc) only work for Parts 1-8... could this be a bug?

Or is there a specific setting that needs to be made to allow MW to control Parts 9-16, if it is assigned in that Part.

A workaround maybe to use the Nords MW to send MIDI CC to MODX Part 9? Such that MODX MW in Part 9 is mirroring the Nord MW.

If Nord MW is used to directly address Rotary Effect.. then it's potentially going to get complicated... SysEx maybe.

Can Nord only send on MIDI Ch9?

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 5:10 am
Antony
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Just for focus...

The Problem is:- MW will NOT Control Parts 9-16 in Performance Home (Normal Useage).

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 5:12 am
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