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Help programming the Mod Wheel (MW)

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Antony
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Just a thought...

UNLESS OP's "affected MODX performances" already have Parts 1-8 FULL, then he can simply EDIT his existing Performances and EXCHANGE Part 9 to Part 8.

Then on NORD set Global MIDI to Channel 8.

The reverse case (MODX Keyboard plays NORD sounds via Ch16) should remain unchanged.

The Part "Exchange" Operation on MODX takes seconds. The amount of time it takes to modify everything, depends on how many Performances need to be modified.

One pitfall, if MW is already assigned to any other existing "MODX Parts" then moving Mod Wheel will also affect those, and not just affect the "Organ Part".

Therefore any redundant MW assignments (and I am guessing there will be) will need to be deleted (or MW receive switch turned off).

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 5:32 am
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

Since I can't find anything that says Controllers (Mod Wheel, Pitch Bend etc) only work for Parts 1-8... could this be a bug?

Not a bug.

You can assign controller modulation to Parts 9-16. However, controller movements (the source controllers) will be "cut off" from any Part with Keyboard Control as OFF unless:

a) When Keyboard Control OFF Part is NOT selected ...

Controller movement is sent through MIDI directly to the MIDI channel of the Part. This only applies when the MIDI mode is set to Multi or Hybrid (and not Single). This is why I suggested possibilities of using a loopback cable (or DAW echo beck) where the MIDI message will come from MODX itself and also using an external MIDI controller such as a MIDI capable controller or computer to send from that device. An example of such a MIDI message would be CC#1 (which is modulation) sent to MIDI channel 9. This would give Part 9 "access" to modwheel modulation otherwise cut-off by using Keyboard Control as OFF. Note that the modwheel position you "feed" to an individual Part from an external controller doesn't have to be the same as the physical modwheel position. Although you may desire these to be the same -- that's something under your control under a few of these suggestions.

b) When Keyboard Control OFF Part IS selected ...

This invokes the rule of keyboard control. In this case, no matter if the keyboard is configured as Multi, Hybrid, or Single - all 3 modes will work the same. When a Part with Keyboard Control OFF is selected, this will connect the local controllers (keyboard piano keys, modwheel, [ASSIGN 1/2] buttons, etc) to the selected Part (9-16 since these always have keyboard control off or any Part 1-8 with keyboard control OFF). This also disconnects the piano keys and controllers from all other Parts not selected.

... if it's possible to send the Nord's MW through MIDI channel 9 then this would satisfy a)'s "An example of such a MIDI message would be CC#1 (which is modulation) sent to MIDI channel 9.". I don't know the capabilities or limitations of the Nord so I cannot consult on that.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 9:47 am
Posts: 1717
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[quotePost id=117838] I want the mod wheel to control the speed of the rotor of the hammond organ when I first load the program and not have to select part 9 to get the MW to work. It seems MW is not considered one of the "common knobs." Does that mean this isn't possible?[/quotePost]

Yes, sadly, correct. This is impossible.

Low Hanging Fruit for Yamaha, add Mod Wheel to Performance (Common) level Controller Assign options. Won't happen, I don't think. Sadly.

Workarounds... I dunno.

~ Other (krumpy gunt) Andrew

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 1:54 pm
Posts: 1717
Member Admin
 

[quotePost id=117850]You'll have to give me some grace. I've been helping a family member with some recent medical trauma -- in and out of different hospitals and (mobility) rehab facilities.

[/quotePost]

Sorry to hear.

All the very best to you and yours!

And grace? Always. Asked as am too accustomed to technical folks sidestepping the "no, not possible" portions of queries, seemingly by default. Never sure if this avoidance of negative truths is deliberate, some kind of presumptive/subconscious oversight, or if the writers are simply not certain so don't want to directly respond etc.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 2:01 pm
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Wow, I appreciate all the discussion about my issue and sorry to hear about your family emergency, Jason.

As Antony previously suggested, I am basically using the rotor fast/slow like a switch. I'd definitely be open to his option, especially if it would solve the problem. If I programmed the rotor speed as a fast/slow switch, could that control part 9?

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 2:41 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

Never sure if this avoidance of negative truths is deliberate, some kind of presumptive/subconscious oversight, or if the writers are simply not certain so don't want to directly respond etc.

Despite occasional accusations to the contrary - I am never playing games and never have any ulterior motive to my answers. If my answer seems off then the most likely reason is that I didn't understand portions of the original problem, do not have complete information, am having a bad day, got unlucky with my assessment, or any number of "normal" reasons why this would happen. The best approach is to try to recalibrate the discussion maybe presenting what you perceive I missed as a rephrase and I'll try again to be more helpful.

I have to restate that I'm a fellow keyboard player - not compensated for participation here or given any other benefits. I do this only because I was helped tremendously by members of motifator and know that my own keyboard experience with Yamaha synthesizers (which can be counter intuitive at many times) was only tolerable through help from the forum. Also, as a secondary reason - I enhance my own knowledge of the hardware/software by helping others with problems I'd never even try to have (because I'm not really a DAW user for my keyboard work, etc).

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 3:03 pm
Dragos
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

[quotePost id=117838]It seems MW is not considered one of the "common knobs." Does that mean this isn't possible?[/quotePost]
It's not a "common knob" but you can use the actual knobs.

Performance (top level) Knobs can be remotes (macros) for Knobs of any Part (1-16).

Select Part 9, assign the Assignable Knob 1 (of Part 9) to what you need (parameter of Insert A or B), then go to Performance Home and assign the Assignable Knob 1 of the Performance to Assignable Knob 1 of Part 9.
You can then play Part 9 from your external keyboard and control your rotary from Assignable Knob 1.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 3:31 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

The easiest way to get to Part 9 with controllers is to use common assignable knobs or Super Knob (which controls the same common assignable knob). Super Knob has the benefit of working no matter which Part is selected. If you're not selecting Parts as it is (which is the default for Performances when you recall them) - then your Performance will always be in a "no Part selected" state throughout and there would be no consequence to using a Common Assignable Knob instead of Super Knob. Super Knob is available no matter which Part is selected -- so that's where it becomes useful in a different way than the assignable knobs which themselves change personalities depending on Part selection or the fixed function selection (when the "[ASSIGN]" button isn't lit).

You would do what was suggested before - take the existing modwheel programming and change the source to a free Part-level Assignable Knob. Then setup your chosen Common Assignable Knob and set the destination to the Part 9 Assignable Knob chosen for the Part-level knob. Then unlink this Common Assignable knob from superknob so you can use superknob independently from this Common Assignable knob or leave it linked if you want to use Super Knob.

Note - if it's more difficult to use the Common Assignable knob because of the size of the knob - you can adjust the curve under "Control Assign" that has the rotary speed as the destination under Part 9. You can "tighten up" the range that would be required to switch between fast/slow so you don't have to rotate the knob as much to toggle states.

Rotary Speed is inherently an "on off" (aka switch) state parameter. It doesn't have variable speeds. When 0-63 the speed is slow and when 64-127 the speed is fast. You notice the setting itself only has two states (Slow and Fast).

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 3:44 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

No - from the Modx - Parts 9-16 do NOT, and can not, have keyboard control selected. Unless those parts are directly selected you can't 'control' them from the Modx

This (the bolded portion) only applies to most controllers. The Common Assignable knobs (either directly or indirectly through Super Knob) are the exception. They can always reach Parts with Keyboard Control turned OFF (or ON - doesn't matter). Also, per the discussion below: Envelopes are also controllers that allow for modulating Parts 9-16 or any Keyboard Control OFF Part as well.

To elaborate: in the realm of overly complex and wasteful - you actually could use the Mod Wheel to control Parts 9-16 (or any other Part with keyboard control turned OFF). It's not a walk in the park and ends up "eating" a Part - but can be done. And, I will start by saying that because Parts 1-8 are already full for you (I assume) - it isn't suggested for your particular needs.

At any rate - you would "burn" a Part in order to make the Mod Wheel change the volume of this Part. The output of this burned Part would be set to OFF so you don't hear it. I would use an FM-X Part and I've discussed this before in more depth. The only way for one Part to communicate to another Part is through Envelope Follow (and Envelopes are source controllers in each Part -- each Envelope representing some other Part's envelope aka current output volume). The FM-X part would be made so the first time you strike any key a monophonic sine wave is output and set the frequency to fixed (not ratio) so the same pitch comes out no matter which key you press. Then set this burned Part's Mod Wheel as a source controller for the destination of Volume for this Part. Now this burned Part's Envelope controller (whichever Envelope # matches the Part) will be a reflection of the modwheel position. You can use any other Part (Keyboard Control OFF or ON) to replace this Envelope # controller as an indirect reflection of modwheel. Set the burned FM-X Part's release level to "hold" (maximum) so when you let go of the key the FM-X burned part will "drone" forever.

I just tested the above Envelope Follower "crazy" method with my keyboard and modwheel now controls Part 9. I have it modulating pitch but you can set the destination to rotary speed just as well (if there was an instance where you have a Part 1-8 to "burn" in the future and want to do something similar ... and have the patience to set this up). To be clear - I have no Part selected (I'm on the homescreen) and moving modwheel up/down changes the pitch of Part 9 up/down. I have Part 9 playing an arpeggio on hold so it keeps sounding even when not selected and I can show controllers can still "reach" Part 9 -- Envelope or Common Assignable Knobs.

Therefore, add "Envelope" as a controller to the exceptions list to "breaking through" the Keyboard Control OFF barrier.

As a side note: I use envelope follower all the time to get around limitations presented elsewhere in the controls. Envelopes "act" differently than any other controller (including Super Knob) - so they present a unique opportunity for creativity if you're willing to give up some resources.

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 4:10 pm
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Topic starter
 

You would do what was suggested before - take the existing modwheel programming and change the source to a free Part-level Assignable Knob. Then setup your chosen Common Assignable Knob and set the destination to the Part 9 Assignable Knob chosen for the Part-level knob. Then unlink this Common Assignable knob from superknob so you can use superknob independently from this Common Assignable knob or leave it linked if you want to use Super Knob.

I ended up doing this and it worked the way I desired. I realized that the MW was linked to 3 or 4 effects in part 9, but I was able to get it to sound good with the superknob. Thanks for everyone's help!

 
Posted : 15/07/2022 6:45 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

Sounds good.

Since Part 9 is now using a Part-9-Assignable-Knob as the source and rotary speed as the destination -- you can use this same Part-9-Assignable-Knob (whichever number is currently used and under control of Super Knob through a Common Assignable Knob) to modulate the other 3 or 4 effects that Mod Wheel was controlling. In other words, you can switch everything Mod Wheel was doing over to the Part-level assignable knob and the function will be identical to the Mod Wheel assuming you use the same curves, parameters, and destinations as the MW (only now using the correct Part-level Assignable Knob).

I realized that the MW was linked to 3 or 4 effects in part 9, but I was able to get it to sound good with the superknob.

Your (above) summary seemed to mention some amount of compromise was made. There shouldn't need to be any since you are replacing MW assignments with Part-level Assignable Knob assignments. For example, there would not be any problem with number of destinations running out since replacement means no less and no more. Just different source assignments to existing programming.

I did have to infer a bit from your summary -- and I suppose it's possible that the MW was doing more than you wanted and are actually happier/better off without having all of the previous assignments carrying forward.

Regardless - I'm happy you've arrived at a workable solution.

 
Posted : 16/07/2022 6:09 am
Posts: 1717
Member Admin
 

[quotePost id=117873]

Envelopes are also controllers that allow for modulating Parts 9-16 or any Keyboard Control OFF Part as well.

To elaborate: in the realm of overly complex and wasteful - you actually could use the Mod Wheel to control Parts 9-16 (or any other Part with keyboard control turned OFF). It's not a walk in the park and ends up "eating" a Part - but can be done. And, I will start by saying that because Parts 1-8 are already full for you (I assume) - it isn't suggested for your particular needs....

[/quotePost]

BRILLIANT!!!

Thank you!

 
Posted : 16/07/2022 6:10 am
Posts: 1717
Member Admin
 

[quotePost id=117876]
Your summary seemed to mention some amount of compromise was made.

[/quotePost]

Think this is in reference to not being able to use Mod Wheel. That using anything else IS a compromise. That the ideal is to use the Mod Wheel for this.

~ OtherAndrew not OP

 
Posted : 16/07/2022 6:12 am
Posts: 0
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Topic starter
 

What I ended up doing was changing all the MW part assignments to knob 1 and then controlling that via the superknob at the common level.

I'm curious to know: if I wanted to create a fast/slow switch for this function (mentioned previously in the tread), how would I go about doing that?

 
Posted : 16/07/2022 6:21 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

if I wanted to create a fast/slow switch for this function (mentioned previously in the tread), how would I go about doing that

Some inference needs to be made here. I think what you mean is you want to use a controller that's already a switch to control the rotary speed. Maybe I'm wrong -- but that's one interpretation of the above.

If that's what you want - then we need to first think about what switches we have that can be programmed:

1) [ASSIGN 1]
2) [ASSIGN 2]
3) [MS TRIGGER]
4) Super Knob's two switches for saving position aka KNOB POSITION [1] and [2]
5) External foot switch (latching type) connected to the FS port. You can find one that's easy to press with your hand if that's preferable.

Options 1, 2, and 5 are all controllers that are part of the modulation matrix. They can be used as "drop in" replacements for other controllers. Except - and this applies here - at the least the ASSIGN 1/2 buttons are not going to be transmitted to Keyboard Control OFF Parts. Therefore, you would have to use them indirectly using envelope follower and burning a Part 1-8 (which I do not believe you have). Option 3 (or, better stated - candidate #3) MS Trigger is not a great option because it's not quite possible to setup a motion sequence that would output (and hold) an "ON" value like 127 and then when the MS button is turned off hold an "OFF" value like 0. Plus motion sequence requires an Arp or key press to trigger - so that's a bad candidate.

Candidate #4 doesn't give you one button that toggles. You would have one button for slow and one for fast. Say SN POS [1] is for slow and SN POS [2] is for fast. You program these by pressing [SHIFT] + the [1] button above the super knob to save the current position into the [1] button. Maybe turn the knob full counter clockwise and then press the shift combo. And then turn the knob full clockwise and press [SHIFT] + [2] to save the fast superknob position to button [2].

Candidate 5 I'd have to experiment to see if the foot switch is cut off when keyboard control is turned off or not. So that one has some chance of being off the table.

Let me know if I'm barking up the right tree here.

 
Posted : 16/07/2022 9:25 pm
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