[quotePost id=121404]
Nope - I forgot this is the Montage forum.

But I still don't understand how using SSS takes away any power or why disabling it would give you power back.[/quotePost]
I guess they could use the additional notes that are accounted for in SSS toward toward total polyphony instead.
It's actually not a bad idea if Yamaha were to add a button/switch to a Performance that allowed us to disable SSS, which would then automatically increase the total polyphony for that Performance from 128+128 to 256+256, thereby giving it more power.

I guess they could use the additional notes that are accounted for in SSS toward toward total polyphony instead.

I must still be missing something different about the Montage from my Modx.

I'm not aware of SSS holding any notes in reserve. As far as I know a performance using SSS can use all available polyphony.

I don't see what notes would be held in reserve for.

The only 'issue' I'm aware of is if an SSS performance is using all available polyphony then when you switch to a new performance it may not have as much polyphony as it wants or needs immediately until any held notes from the SSS performance are finished.

1. 1st perf (SSS) polyphony being used = P1
2. 2nd perf polyphony wanted = P2

If P1 + p2 exceeds Plimit one or the other has to give whether SSS is being used or not.

So you seem to be saying that you want to turn SSS 'off' for the 1st perf so that the second perf will get ALL of the polyphony available and the 1st perf will just get cut off.

If that is what you are saying I suppose that is a valid 'corner case' that currently isn't addressed except by artificially adding 1 or more dummy parts to bump the part count past the 8/4 limit.

SSS is not related to polyphony. Active oscillators no matter if SSS held or not will consume polyphony.

It’s simply the mathematics about the number of Insertion Effects. The Insertion Effects can continue the sound of Effects that continue without cutting off the effects

The MONTAGE has 2 Insertion Effects for each 16 Parts.
The MODX/MODX+ has 2 Insertion Effects for 12 Parts.

The KBD CTRL Multi Part Performance all have 2 Insertion Effects… MONTAGE/MODX/MODX+

The MONTAGE will have dual Insertion Effects for all Parts — this means all the Insertion Effects will continue to sound the Effects as you switch from one 8 KBD CTRL Parts to another 8 KBD CTRL Part Performance. It will not cutoff the effects.

The MODX/MODX+ has 12 Parts that can be Insert Effect active — there are KBD CTRL (8 Parts max.) with dual Insertion Effects, but only four Parts from 9-16, can be selected. This means all the Insertion Effects will continue to sound the Effects as you switch from a maximum of one 4 KBD CTRL Parts to another 4 KBD CTRL Part Performance. It will not cutoff the effects.

In order to get a SSS icon, a maximum of 4 Parts w/Inserts to a maximum of 4 Parts.

From the MODX/MODX+ “HOME” screen
Select a Part
Press [EDIT] > “Effect” > “Ins Assign”
You can select “Active Part”
Part 9 — Part 16
You can select 4 active Parts.

(SSS has nothing at all with Polyphony)

[quotePost id=121414]The MONTAGE has 2 Insertion Effects for each 16 Parts.
The MODX/MODX+ has 2 Insertion Effects for 12 Parts.
[/quotePost]
It always seemed curious to me that the Montage, (with 2 insertion fx for each of 16 parts) could do 8 parts' worth of seamless sound switching (using half the 16 part's worth at a time), but the MODX (with 2 insertion fx for each of 12 parts), could only do 4, rather than 6 (which would have again been using half the total available fx resources at a time). I wonder what the "missing variable" here is.

For the MODX/MODX+ to be compatible for with MONTAGE, you need all eight KBD CTRL Parts to have 8 dual Insertion Effects.

All KBD CTRL Parts have dual Insertion Effects…
There are 8 KBD CTRL Parts in a Multi Part Performance.
MODX/MODX+ has 12 Part Insertion Effects… the 8 KBD CTRL Parts are fixed.
4 Parts you choose from 9-16.

Think about it…

Ok I am curious now.

What if I have 2 Performances whereby they have no insertion effects (just completely dry) and each have 8 PARTs under KBD CTRL, half of them AWM2 & FM-X on both, and I play something with the sustain pedal held down and come really close to the max polyphony, then while still holding the sustain pedal, I switch to the 2nd Performance and keep playing notes from that performance while the previous Performance still have most notes still sounding out. Does SSS come into play at all and stop notes from dropping from the 1st Performance as I start to play notes in the 2nd Performance?

[quotePost id=121420]Ok I am curious now.

What if I have 2 Performances whereby they have no insertion effects (just completely dry) and each have 8 PARTs under KBD CTRL, half of them AWM2 & FM-X on both, and I play something with the sustain pedal held down and come really close to the max polyphony, then while still holding the sustain pedal, I switch to the 2nd Performance and keep playing notes from that performance while the previous Performance still have most notes still sounding out. Does SSS come into play at all and stop notes from dropping from the 1st Performance as I start to play notes in the 2nd Performance?[/quotePost]

This was pretty much my immediate reaction to the claim by BadMister... my brain instantly asked, on reading his response "what about long decays/releases"?

There's gotta be two concessions going on. One for effects and one for the dry note tails.

And... the way it's done makes me think they found a way to optimise the FM-X rather than add another processor to the MODX+

Also, I tend to think that the price trends of the Montage since about November of last year indicated that's when they were running them out, as fast as they could. A lot of retailers have had different, staggered sales, all around the world, at quite big discounts (more than 25% off), from time to time, all kind of stopping about two months ago, wherein they're seemingly trying to stabilise the price now.

This was in second tier markets like Canada, Australia and Spain, which might mean they didn't need to do it in the major markets like USA, Japan, Germany/UK having only a couple of hundred left over around the world, perhaps. Anyone keep an eye on South American countries to see if one of their countries was doing deep discounting to more rapidly flush out remaining stock, too?

[quotePost id=121414]It’s simply the mathematics about the number of Insertion Effects. The Insertion Effects can continue the sound of Effects that continue without cutting off the effects
[/quotePost]

As usual, dude nails it. 🙂

Hope you're enjoying life, Phil -- pj

[quotePost id=121419]For the MODX/MODX+ to be compatible for with MONTAGE, you need all eight KBD CTRL Parts to have 8 dual Insertion Effects.

All KBD CTRL Parts have dual Insertion Effects…
There are 8 KBD CTRL Parts in a Multi Part Performance.
MODX/MODX+ has 12 Part Insertion Effects… the 8 KBD CTRL Parts are fixed.
4 Parts you choose from 9-16.

Think about it…[/quotePost]
I think I get it. So... if they had allowed MODX SSS to work with up to 6 Parts (instead of 4), each Part with its own effects, there would have been no insert effects resources available at all for a 7th or 8th Part.

[quotePost id=121425]
This was pretty much my immediate reaction to the claim by BadMister... my brain instantly asked, on reading his response "what about long decays/releases"?
[/quotePost]

You're assuming that each stage (unit) of the hardware pipeline runs to completion before starting the next stage. Yamaha figured out (and patented) a way to unwind the computation across stages -- into the effect units. This is one reason why the hardware latency is so low and why a creature like SSS is necessary. I don't have the patent number at hand, but it is part of the AWM architecture. It's a rather old patent, BTW.

Yamaha's hardware implementation is not as simple as a computer running a sequential program... 😉

All the best -- pj

[quotePost id=121429][quotePost id=121425]
This was pretty much my immediate reaction to the claim by BadMister... my brain instantly asked, on reading his response "what about long decays/releases"?
[/quotePost]

You're assuming that each stage (unit) of the hardware pipeline runs to completion before starting the next stage. Yamaha figured out (and patented) a way to unwind the computation across stages -- into the effect units. This is one reason why the hardware latency is so low and why a creature like SSS is necessary. I don't have the patent number at hand, but it is part of the AWM architecture. It's a rather old patent, BTW.

Yamaha's hardware implementation is not as simple as a computer running a sequential program... 😉

All the best -- pj
[/quotePost]
So for a Performance having 8 PARTs KBD CTRL enabled (& no Insertion Effects enabled) with long decays/releases/sustain pedal held, once the Performance is switched over to a new Performance SSS, the completion of the continued sound switches over to the effect units..?

What if I have 2 Performances whereby they have no insertion effects (just completely dry)

Wet or dry wouldn't make any difference.

and each have 8 PARTs under KBD CTRL, half of them AWM2 & FM-X on both, and I play something with the sustain pedal held down and come really close to the max polyphony,

By this you mean AWM2 is using close to 128 units of its polyphony pool and also FM-X is using close to 128 units of its separate polyphony pool. OK. Lets just pretend like AWM2 is using 127 units and FM-X is using 127 units.

then while still holding the sustain pedal, I switch to the 2nd Performance and keep playing notes from that performance while the previous Performance still have most notes still sounding out.

After switching before pressing a key AWM=127 units continues to be true, FM-X=127 units continues to be true. Then when you press new notes - they will add however many units they would consume depending on the triggered oscillators are FM-X or AWM2. This would dictate which pool gets subtracted. You can only add one oscillator of each engine before notes start dropping.

Does SSS come into play at all and stop notes from dropping from the 1st Performance as I start to play notes in the 2nd Performance?

No - SSS doesn't alter the polyphony rules any.

This is similar to if you were holding the sustain pedal down having keyboard control only on Parts 1-7 then switched to a scene that turns on Part 8's keyboard control (and turns off kbd ctrl on Parts 1-7). The same situation would occur. If Parts 1-7 use up most of the polyphony then adding the Part 8 oscillators to the mix may exceed polyphony and keyboard control, in this case, has no impact on the polyphony rules.

SSS causes notes to still consume polyphony from a previous Performance. So, in that sense, one could say that if SSS didn't exist then we'd know the previous Performance would always cut off during a Performance switch and free up those notes from consuming polyphony. So, yes, SSS gives more opportunity for exceeding polyphony limits. It isn't a tool to save you from exceeding polyphony limits.

I think I get it. So... if they had allowed MODX SSS to work with up to 6 Parts (instead of 4), each Part with its own effects, there would have been no insert effects resources available at all for a 7th or 8th Part.

I don't follow that.

There are two available insert effects per part for parts 1-8. As I understand it SSS doesn't change that at all.