[quotePost id=123719]The biggest oddity has gotta be the lack of Polyphonic AfterTouch in the two smaller models with synth actions - depriving the kinds of people that want that kind of control from having it.
That's just weird.
[/quotePost]
Yeah, I completely agree on this!
It makes absolutely no sense to give your new 88 key flagship synth PolyAT and then not have your 6 & 7 PolyAT capable. It's completely backwards! It's like Yamaha are so out of touch with their customer base and synth enthusiasts around the world in general.

If I had a synth with PolyAT I would use it, but I am primarily first and foremost an 88 key, weighted hammer Piano synth guy. Most people who are shopping for an 88 key value pianos most and PolyAT would be a secondary thing.
I think that those who are most inclined to what PolyAT would want it in a 6 or 7 model. I'm not really an PolyAT guy and I know this to be extremely important to those who are, and yet Yamaha don't know this while being in the business of designing and selling synths..!?

So Yamaha have not been on the forums, or at least ignoring or not reading comments from Synth enthusiasts and their own customers regarding Poly Aftertouch, because if they were, whoever made the decision to have PolyAT in the 8, but not in the 6 & 7, would not have done so. It really is a shame and kinda sad that such an awesome new Synth is being somewhat diminished in hype & in comments on almost every second post of every thread on every synth forum out there right now due to this somewhat near fatal flaw in judgement by Yamaha. They have so much there that they did right that they can brag about, such as the AN-X, AWM2 128 Operator enhancement, etc., etc., but if is being somewhat overshadowed by this major blunder. Sure they will now no doubt sell more M8x boards then they would ever have anticipated, but I think they are in for a rude awakening on M6 & M7 sales, as so many people are soured by this decision, lack of vision, and out of touchness with the Synth world.
*What Yamaha (& the person at Yamaha who made this cost/profit based decision) will save on manufacturing costs for the M6 & M7 by not changing their keybeds to a PolyAT cable ones, they will lose in sales 10 fold..!!
Roland and Korg have got to be laughing right now at this and saying at the top level in the boardrooms, we are definitely adding PolyAT to our 6 & 7 models now for sure!!! And when they release their next generation hardware synths, they will use this as a key bragging point directly against the Montage M6 & M7.

I realize that it probably wasn't on purpose, that the GEX keybed they wanted to go with for pianos on the 88 & made perfect sense for weighted action plus piano enhancements, just happened to be PolyAT capable ... so they decided to implement the PolyAT and push that in demos. But to then decide not to change the M6 & M7 keybeds to use AT capable ones, they essentially shot themselves in the foot. They should have NOT included PolyAT in the M8x as they would not have had as much backlash and p!$$ed off potential customers not buying their new M6 & M7 hardware synths. Yamaha just released the most powerful Synth line on the planet right now, but failed epically with a single, but extremely important decision to not include Polyphonic Aftertouch on their M6 & M7 models.

Seems like Poly Aftertouch was just a Poly After thought for Yamaha... 🙁

[quotePost id=123718]The Hydrasynth is a VA with Wavetable oscillators. If you don't scan through the wavetables, you're using it like a mere single wave shape VA.
...
So the question has to be: Montage original + second hand VA with better effects (and save some money) or do you really want the all-in-one approach of the Montage M with its comprises in both VA and FM "advances", but "high def" AWM2 and a very fiddly Motion Controller?
[/quotePost]

Now, your reluctance to recognize the difference between VA and Wavetable synthesis is as baffling to me as your willingness to come to the official Yamaha forums and explain to each and every one here how much Yamaha's new flagship sucks, and is on par with your denial to accept that what is "the best" for your ears is not necessarily the best for every keyboard player, depending on their background and utilization of the instrument.

VA is meant to be a virtual recreation of the behavior of classic analog VCO, VCA, VCF, etc, while Wavetable is playing a chunk of a wave in a loop. I understand that both technologies can render similar sonic results, providing that enough time is invested in them, but that does not make the Wavetable synth a VA, just like the FM synth's attempt to emulate an "analog" synth sound does not make it an analog synth.

Back to keyboard control and the limitations (no keyboard control on Parts 9-16 which is the same limitation in the previous generation)...

Last generation the workaround for this would be to take all Parts 1-8 and turn on zone control so that each of these Parts will transmit to a different channel in the 9-16 range and then take a MIDI cable and connect MIDI in to MIDI out (aka MIDI loopback cable) so that the internal Parts 1-8 would control the Parts 9-16. This had some limitations but it's what you could do if you really wanted to. Also, this was not a recommended configuration although I never had an issues with it.

This generation, you could again go off the grid and use a MIDI loopback cable. The difference today is that Parts 9-16 can all be set to the same MIDI channel. Therefore, you only need to to assign one Part under keyboard control (Parts 1-8) to transmit to this shared channel. I wish there was a way to internally route MIDI from Part to Part - but there isn't so this is where the loopback cable comes in.. There's less compromise involved with the new options available to MIDI configuration. Still compromise - just less of it.

It makes absolutely no sense to give your new 88 key flagship synth PolyAT and then not have your 6 & 7 PolyAT capable.

Not addressing, or refuting, your argument but just confirming that the 6 & 7 tone generators DO support AT.
Those models will correctly respond to and play MIDI received that includes AT commands. It's just that the keybed can't produce the AT itself.

But if the 6 or 7 is driven by other hardware or software they can send MIDI with AT and it will play properly.

In particular the upcoming ESP software will be able to do that.

I was running the math against price and weight of an M7+external PolyAT controller. For what I was trying to achieve - the combined weight and price often/always came up above the M8's specs.

I have some specific use cases in songs I do where PolyAT would be helpful. It's really only about 5 tunes where I feel I could really utilize this. If I were to be more in the market today for the M series, I'd probably get the M7 and then add a PolyAT keyboard that more fits my budget and weight goals down the line. Not that this applies to anyone other than me.

Still taking this thing slow.

My guess would be that they do all support it, and that all 3 sized models have the exact same OS, preset memory, etc. installed, as well as the same internal circuitry/tone generators, aside from the keybed...

I would also say yes that if driven by a PolyAT keybed or ESP software, the M6 & M7 would be capable & play it properly, just like the MODX(+) can do regular aftertouch/receive & play that MIDI when controlled from a capable keyboard, such as the Montage...

I realize this would void warranty, but maybe after the warranty is up, I wonder if a part replacement store could provide a replacement keybed for the M6 & M7's that is PolyAT capable, and would it just work..!? Similar to how some people have replaced the main internal board of a MODX with a MODX+ board and basically now have a MODX+ (without the new mod wheels)..!?

I wonder if a part replacement store could provide a replacement keybed for the M6 & M7's that is PolyAT capable, and would it just work..!?

Personally, I doubt that would work given that the GEX keybed in the 8X uses a new design by Yamaha
and is used to support functionality that other manufacturers won't have.

This is from Blake's take:
https://www.yamahasynth.com/learn/montage-m/blake-s-take-introducing-montage-m

GEX is an all-new action with research and development roots in our hybrid piano world. It is a balanced action with synthetic ivory and textured ebony, and the mechanism itself uses a continuous electromagnetic induction sensor. Key repetition is fast, precise, exceptionally expressive, and comfortable. It is the best feeling weighted synthesizer action I’ve ever played. There are more velocity curves available in MONTAGE M to customize key response to different playing types. And the “x” in M8x signifies polyphonic aftertouch, allowing you to individually modulate held notes with each finger. You can set the aftertouch curve to your playing type, too.

So the electronics is going to expect certain signals/levels from the 'induction sensor' and I don't see
how any other keyboard could possible produce the correct signals needed.

Obviously I can't know for certain but that doesn't seem possible to me.

I think Jason has the right idea for gigging. Use a dual keyboard rig with an M6/7 and a Poly controller with a small keyboard. Then use the upcoming ESP to do your design/prep work at your home/studio
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/montagem/index.html

EXPANDED SOFTSYNTH PLUGIN (E.S.P.) (COMING EARLY 2024)

A game-changer for musicians, the Expanded Softsynth Plugin (E.S.P.) replicates the MONTAGE M in your favorite Digital Workstation (DAW). Free for all registered MONTAGE M owners, E.S.P. allows you to create, edit and mix MONTAGE M Performances anywhere you happen to be – without the hardware – offering an unprecedented level of stage and studio integration. We are planning on releasing E.S.P. in early 2024. The first version will have all the MONTAGE M sound while being limited to basic editing. The full version will be available in Summer 2024.

The M8X is an absolute beast at 63 pounds and that is without a hard case. I certainly am NOT coming out of 'roadie retirement' to lug that thing around.

What interests me about the new keybed is the mention that there are possibilities of the keybed not yet tapped into. With continuous scanning certainly the "3 sensor" style of note triggering could happen requiring less travel of the key to get a repeated note (which I imagine is already employed). There are also opportunities to do release velocity which is not yet, as I am aware, an option. I don't know what they have in store - but it's something.

One really cool thing that absolutely could be done is a better emulation of the tonewheel organ. Since the key angle can be resolved - different samples could be triggered as you push in the key which is similar to the switching that happens in a tonewheel organ. Where you could play the keys really lightly and not engage all of the drawbars. Also the "sound" of sweeping through drawbars as opposed to having them all play at once. This would be an absolute polyphony killer but I guess you could throw half of the drawbars in user memory and half in preset assuming the presets had the right samples to begin with. 256/9 = about 28 effective notes of polyphony if all drawbars are used or 32 effective notes of polyphony if only 8 drawbars are simulated.

One could come up with a lot of alternative uses for this kind of feature. The artists who provide content for this thing are having a field day.

Yeah, thinking about it, unless it the exact same keybed or a replacement model, it might not even trig the velocities correctly, etc.

Although if it were a replacement part that would work the same as the original part, but just happened to have PolyAT capability, I wonder if it would do the Poly Aftertouch stuff or not?

Based on the description above from Blake's take regarding the GEX, it appears the major technology advances are for the piano playing and the aftertouch part is just an additional feature. Which if true, it might go towards the reason why Yamaha only included PolyAT in the 8 instead of the 6 & 7...because the keybed they choose had that extra functionality..!?

[quotePost id=123721]But to then decide not to change the M6 & M7 keybeds to use AT capable ones, they essentially shot themselves in the foot. [/quotePost]
As you've probably seen by now from the subsequent messages, the polyAT keyboard is an all new design for Yamaha. Maybe it requires an entirely different action and can't be retrofittable to the fsx design. (They did not simply retrofit something to the BHE design) and maybe the non-hammer implementation simply wasn't ready yet. Maybe they want to gauge the response to the poly AT in the 88 before deciding whether to invest in manufacturing the additional design. Maybe they had a warehouse full of FSX actions that need to be sold first. Who knows. Regardless... we have what we have. Buy the 88 with poly AT, buy the 61/76 without, or don't buy anything, and wait to see about a future M6X/M7X. In the mean time, I expect there will be plenty of happy Montage M owners in the near future. I don't see foot-shooting here.

Perhaps Yamaha won't even notice...

I'm just going off what all the numerous people on various forums are saying who were intrigued by what the Montage M would be capable of, and many weren't as hung up or set on it being PolyAT capable, until they found out the M8x was capable but not the M6 or M7 (which seem to be the only two models they are interesting in for the majority of them).
But maybe these are the ones who are just more vocal, who have the Hydrasynth or Osmose, etc..!?

My point was more about, if PolyAT had been included in the M6 & M7, my guess would be that a great percentage of people who are not going to be buying one, would have changed their minds and bought one... My theory is that the extra cost for manufacturing the 6 & 7 with a PolyAT keybed would have been offset by the extra sales!?

But maybe like you said, they just weren't ready to implement it in those keybed sizes..!?

Regardless, it really doesn't matter to me as owning one is not in the cards. But the new Montage M8x is a dream synth. After watching many demos and some of the new Montage M Tips video series, I really love how they've improved the Montage classic! Everything appears more well laid out both on the screen/menus & on the hardware/buttons/knobs/etc., more intuitive, kooler graphics/colours, etc. Things appear to be in the best place for programming sounds and for Live Set/gigging. Love how they simplified the right side buttons and moved some of that functionality to the left side for editing/programming, etc.

I don't know what it is, but there is a reason some form of PolyAT keybed isn't available in the M6 and M7. I bet that internally the (US based) R&D team, as keyboard players, already were vocal about this (pointing out how synthesizer players who prefer the synth action keybeds would also be in the demographic for wanting PolyAT) while other factors came into play and whatever those were ended up winning the what-to-release argument.

I'm not sure what Yamaha was thinking when they decided not to include polyphonic aftertouch on the M6/M7. Yamaha was one of the first if not thee first major musical instrument company to build synthesizer keyboards including the CS-80 which included polyphonic aftertouch, by the way. Musicians and specifically keyboard musicians who are in to the synth scene and want all the latest gadgetry must surely be disappointed that Yamaha excluded the M6/M7 from the overall equation. Why is papa showing favoritism to one sibling and distancing himself from the other two siblings? Here's what the GEX keyboard (keybed) technology on the M8x consists of:

"The Yamaha model MONTAGE M8x features a newly developed,
special keyboard called “GEX”, which supports Polyphonic
Aftertouch. Unlike other keyboards, the GEX keyboard does
not use conventional key contacts, but electromagnetic
induction. With this technology, each individual key position
can be continuously scanned. In addition, the keyboard
supports software updates, which enables the future
development of further techniques and articulations beyond
Polyphonic Aftertouch."

Notice the words: 'Beyond Polyphonic Aftertouch.' That means Yamaha could potentially provide MPE (MIDI polyphonic expression) support on the M8x by way of a software update which is a game changer. We know the FSX keybed on the M6/M7 doesn't have this technology but why couldn't/didn't Yamaha include a GEX technology based keybed on the M6/M7 but in a semi-weighted form factor? Is the GEX keyboard technology only capable of working on heavier hammer-action keys? I think Yamaha might look back at this decision and scratch their head. What were we thinking?

PS: If the M6/M7 had polyphonic aftertouch I would have purchased an M7 most likely. The M8x weighs 62 lbs. and a lot of musicians want something that's fairly portable so you don't bust a gut, for one thing. The M6/M7 fit the bill whereas the M8x... not so much. Unless your fresh out of college and got a full scholarship in weight-lifting. I jest, but you get my drift.

I don't know what it is, but there is a reason some form of PolyAT keybed isn't available in the M6 and M7.

We may never know the reason.

Technically one would think that each key needs its own 'continuous electromagnetic induction sensor' so it if it works for 88 keys it would work for fewer keys also.

I'm guessing it is probably marketing to provide separation of the models. Otherwise the only main difference would be number of keys. I think the new audio tech is in all three models.

It could be supply stream related or part availability, or cost.

Wouldn't surprise me if someone didn't start a new WHINE thread where they could complain about it more readily. I've got to spend the bulk of my time trying to figure out this new instrument. I tried a few SysEx things to see if I could get a performance dump but never got ANY response from the M8 - not even an error message. Tried using F0 43 20 7F 1C 02 0E 25 00 F7 with a device ID of 02. Also
tried everything from 00 up to 12. I have no plans to try all 127.

My understanding: a wavetable synth loops/connects/manipulates sampled waveforms. Analog/VA doesn't loop anything, it generates the waveforms as it goes, so to speak. Nothing is looped, the raw material is not a sample. Analog may be generating it via voltage control while VA is using an algorithm, but neither is playing a loop or using a sampled wave.