Are you sure the "W" button is turned on when you're trying to record automation?

https://steinberg.help/cubase_elements_le_ai/v9.5/en/cubase_nuendo/topics/automation/automation_writeread_automation_c.html

w/pictures

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/210313425-How-to-Record-Automation-in-Cubase

... and the "R" button is selected when you want to play back the automation?

it doesn´t matter whether those are on or off, it simply doesn´t work to record automation in Cubase Elements (or rather it doesn´t work to extract it and be able to work on it!), I believe, definitely not working with a multipart performance. the only thing that I can do is add the automation later by overdubbing. it´s a compromise...but not a really great one. recording and playing back automation also only works at random., sometimes it plays it back, sometimes not, settings being the same. one can maybe try praying before recording..... I don´t know, unfortunately it´s completely unreliable.

and what about importing a song that was recorded directly on the Montage? where´s the automation? doesn´t work, most of the time it doesn´t even play it back and as far as extracting it, I think it cannot be done in Cubase Elements.

That's why I said "if you want to work with a synth and a DAW".
A MIDI controller is a basic thing, whose only purpose is to work with the DAW, there's simply no comparison with a synth/workstation which is basically a DAW in itself.

what exactly is the difference except that the synth can do much more than the midi controller? they both send out the same midi signals, don´t they?

There's nothing wrong with the Montage or Cubase, and the combo works for tons of people.

I believe that. Didn´t say it doesn´t work for others, just saying that I´m too stupid for it. looks like I am just never going to master this stuff. maybe find another hobby?

what exactly is the difference except that the synth can do much more than the midi controller? they both send out the same midi signals, don´t they?

Well, yes and no.
But mostly no. They both send MIDI, but Montage, when used as a synth, doesn't send the same type of info as a generic MIDI controller.

With the controller you work strictly in the DAW.
The only thing you are doing is to connect some knob or slider to a parameter in the DAW, effectively replacing the mouse for that parameter. It's a remote for manipulating the DAW.
The data is generated in the DAW and stays there.

(BTW, you CAN use the Montage that way -- as a controller -- and it'll be much more powerful that the Nektar.
You can use the transport controls, all the sliders and knobs and also all the buttons to the right side of the Montage.
Do check the docs on DAW control, as you happen to have one of the nicest MIDI controllers available.)

With a synth like the Montage, all the data manipulation / automation happens in the synth, then you try to move that in the DAW and process it further.
For that you need to understand the architecture of what's happening in the synth and how to map that conveniently to the DAW tracks so you can further process it.

I saw your other message with the screenshot correctly demonstrating "R" and "W" turned on after replying here.

Perhaps sorting out your upgrade-induced reversion of settings will help. Even when that is sorted, it's true that there's a lot to keep track with Montage. Some knobs change modes depending on what's selected or what button is pressed or a combination. The "Knobs [1]-[8]" which are sometimes assignable (2 modes of those) sometimes fixed function (many modes) will output different messages - sometimes for each knob. In other words - sometimes SOME of the knobs 1-8 will output CC while the rest output SysEx.

Why does this matter? Ignoring software-based automation, as far as I know the basic automation support is for CC messages. Although SysEx can be recorded and played back - there's not an easy way to edit SysEx. At least not the version of Cubase I have (software evolves - so this may change over time - or already have).

And therefore, the burden is on the user to understand what is being dealt with. One cannot assume a knob will only do CC messages. You must know. Memorization is not necessary - the DAW can report the type of message recorded. You can spin a knob and look at the MIDI data to determine if it is CC or SysEx. But, still, you need to come to recognize the difference and your tool's limitations and options with dealing with each message type.

That's just one dimension. How Montage uses MIDI channels to sometimes split up sounds. How each part of this composite sound is triggered and assembled. The nuance of this feature and implications.

Different modes of operation. Different ways these modes can be defeated.

If you do not understand Montage or Cubase or both - then the operation will become a black box. You reach inside to feel around hoping to make it work but cannot see what you're doing. That's not going to lead to any positive experience. Therefore, you need two things: 1) The desire to persevere even when challenged, 2) To be rewarded by experience - even the road with setbacks. If these are not happening - despite giving your best efforts for an extended period of time - then perhaps reevaluating your goals is in order. I'm not sure what you should do - so I won't comment on that.

It is true that there are other keyboards, controllers, etc. with differing capabilities that are certainly more simplistic. Most will sacrifice flexibility in order to make this happen. If you can get your work/play done with a less flexible device - then that's viable. Yamaha has other keyboard instruments that fit this description. So do other manufacturers.

In other words - sometimes SOME of the knobs 1-8 will output CC while the rest output SysEx.

well, I mostly play with the knobs in TONE mode. I mostly only use cutoff, resonance and release. Are those CC or Sysex? I know they can be edited in Cubase Elements because it ALWAYS works when I record them as an overdub later. It just doens´t work when I try to record it live, which is kind of odd, isn´t it? But I can live with that. I can deal with recording my song all plain and overdubbing the knob movements. It´s just that I don´t understand why it won´t work when doing it live.

Thank you everyone for your answers. I will keep the Montage. I thought about it a lot these days. I think that yes, I will just "downgrade" my use of it a bit. And not try to frantically use everything that this machine can do. I think my main problem are multipart performances, everything from drum to bass to lead all in one performance. I think this is what has been holding me back. I am incapable of keeping an overview of 8 parts in one performance with all kinds of stuff assigned left and right to knobs and the superknob. I will aknowledge that the Monatge can do this and it´s probably very useful for other people, but that I don´t need it. I can only deal with one sound at a time and will do so from now on. Just like in the old days.

Knob movements will all be recorded if you're not filtering out MIDI data. That doesn't mean you can edit everything.

I have the answer here - but I think you should answer SysEx vs. CC yourself by recording and looking at the data. It's right in front of you what each knob does.

In another thread - I just re-linked the picture of the screen showing how to find CC vs. SysEx in Cubase. You've done this before. Delete everything and make a recording turning just one of the knobs. See what you get. Rinse and repeat.

The knobs act differently if you have a Part selected vs. having no Part selected. This could seem like shifting sand - but it's not. It's predictable once learning the modes. LEDs on the instrument tell you which mode you're in - but it's easier to know after pressing [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) - no Part is selected. After touching any Part - now you're in a mode where one Part is selected. The knobs will act differently in each case.

well, maybe it´s not meant to be. maybe moving knobs is someting that has to be intuitive and not something that needs to be turned into a curve and drawn with a mouse. maybe it´s better not to do that. just like it´s probably better to learn how to play than to correct half of the notes in the editor, which is really really boring, actually. yes. that would probably be a lot better and a lot more FUN. but thank you for your answers, I will study them later.

If you upgrade to the Pro version - then you get the extremely un-fun opportunity to edit each SysEx message one-by-one. That's the only way to edit Sysex as there is no automation opportunity for SysEx. The reason is because System Exclusive means each system (keyboard, sampler, light system, etc) that runs MIDI has its own format for SysEx. There's no standard for what byte - or bits within the bytes - or group of bytes represent the changing data and what is address or other data. Although maybe there's a slick way to implement such a system - it's deemed to be too obscure and problematic to implement.

If you need "edit" SysEx data then you need to re-record it. That's state of the art right now.

If you want knobs you can automate to affect cutoff/etc - then tie one Performance-level assignable knob to all Parts' cutoff, another knob to resonance, etc ... Replicate the [TONE] functions using assignable knobs. Then assignable knobs at this level of the architecture will be CC. It's a lot of setup if you wanted to do this for any random Performance. Plus there are consequences for (re)assigning the Performance-level Assignable Knobs. If you have just a handful of synth sounds you created (or just want to experiment with a single one) - then this method would be fine since the Performance is fully your creation and you can have this one as a go-to for the knob turning/automation in Cubase.

Note that I just went back and followed my own previous doc to remind me how to show SysEx - and was able to get to the answer of why certain knobs cannot be automated.

@Gabi I'm very sorry you get attacked for being honest.

I sympathise. We are the mere mortals that have not learnt to spend our time administering the relationship between instruments and computers with the kind of diligence and devotion that only lovers of miniature and semantics can do.

Cubase and Montage/MODX do not always play nice, and it's not always solvable.

Anything can upset this relationship in bizarre ways. We should be beyond this, in computing, to a point where things connected to each other are truly Plug-and-Play.

Yamaha makes the instrument, the drivers and the DAW. There is no acceptable excuse for these three things not harmonising instantly, and providing a failsafe connection at all times so users can enjoy creativity as it should be.

We are not there yet precisely because of the kinds of people that would attack you. They're gatekeeping on behalf of corporate narcissism because needless complexity benefits them.

But the complexity is only part of the problem, as I'm sure you're discovering, and correct about:

sometimes other things make the connections and digital relationships unstable, like the angle of the sun, the strength of the wind, the way your neighbours cat looked at you this morning, or how Bill Gates feels about his history with Epstein on this day, at this moment.

SUGGESTION:

Akai's MPC One and Montage... it's a long video... but might well be worth it:

https://youtu.be/IvzTEkuOnVQ

If you're loaded with double+ in terms of cash, consider the MPC Live 2, as it has monitor speakers builtin, and is portable enough that you can take it with you to work on the fiddly parts of songs anywhere, but there are differences:

You can see a comparison here: https://youtu.be/eRJ4EhxO_D4

@Gabi I'm very sorry you get attacked for being honest.
[...] how Bill Gates feels about his history with Epstein on this day, at this moment.

What a pile of (expected) nonsense.

@Gabi

How many "Voices" do you tend to use on the Montage at a time when making songs?

How many VSTs/Plugins are you running in Cubase to make other sounds?

What synth styles and their tones really get your juices flowing?

The answers to the above will probably reveal some of the best options for you.

My hunch, given your ability to get along with the Pattern Sequencer in the Montage, is that the best option is getting the Roland Fantom, since you'll be able to go much further with its sequencer before ever opening Cubase.

Or using the MCP One (or Live ii) as a better "onboard" sequencer for the Montage before battling with Cubase for the final push to song completion.

But, as @Dragos has rightly pointed out, I'm apparently known for delivering piles of nonsense. Whereas he clearly offers great insights, gems of wisdom and sage advice on all matters, at all times.

@Gabi

How many "Voices" do you tend to use on the Montage at a time when making songs?

How many VSTs/Plugins are you running in Cubase to make other sounds?

What synth styles and their tones really get your juices flowing?

The answers to the above will probably reveal some of the best options for you.

My hunch, given your ability to get along with the Pattern Sequencer in the Montage, is that the best option is getting the Roland Fantom, since you'll be able to go much further with its sequencer before ever opening Cubase.

Or using the MCP One (or Live ii) as a better "onboard" sequencer for the Montage before battling with Cubase for the final push to song completion.

But, as @Dragos has rightly pointed out, I'm apparently known for delivering piles of nonsense. Whereas he clearly offers great insights, gems of wisdom and sage advice on all matters, at all times.

well, I have used multiparts with up to 8 voices until now. But now I think it´s better to just record one voice after the other like in the old days. I haven´t used any Cubase sounds or plugins since I own the Montage. I recorded 16 songs that are not quite finshied yet....But unfortunately I forgot a lot because I was depressed and still am. My mother, my cat an my best friend died within a few months. I was unable to play music for 9 months. I forgot my piano lessons, I forgot the circle of fifths, and I forgot Cubase and the Montage. But I want to start again now. I like electronic music. I wanna fool around with knobs, just cutoff and resonance is enough thow. I guess I need to relearn half of what I learned because I just forgot it all. I guess there´s no way around rehashing it all. As tedious as it is. In my frustration about forgetting half of what I tediously learned, I thought I need a simpler instrument. But maybe not. I can´t quit now, since I need to finish my 16 songs.....Or I can give it all up. We´ll see what happens....I bet if I reopen my old projects, I will be LOST. That´s why I am reluctant to even open one.... This is to explain why I am askiing the same old stupid questions again...thow we´ve been thru this last year already.

My deepest condolences!

Straight to the heart of the matter... the Montage is probably the ideal instrument for electronic music because of the Super Knob, FM and the Motion Control. Although I wish it was designed better. There is some needless clicking and clacking required to get anything done that drives me mad. Apparently this is "The Yamaha Way™", I've been told by long time users of the brand.

The good news... you get to start again.

Don't worry, without interruptions, it took me at least 3 goes (from beginning to end) to really understand substrative synthesis, and that's the easiest of the kinds of synthesis. So it's totally normal to forget complex structures.

I still don't know the circle of fifths, despite trying, several times.

And I've never learnt to play the piano, despite starting at it perhaps a dozen times.

The pattern sequencer is more powerful and annoying than it first appears. Especially for making electronic music.

And the arpeggios are a mixed bag. There's a few good ones in the ten thousand there, that can be used to figure out how to make a base line and drum beat for any electronic music you want to make.

Just relax, and do a deep discovery dive into the power of the Montage for a few weeks. Don't even open Cubase. Just try ALL the arpeggios, all the preset sounds, and all the preset live performances and explore what you can do with the SuperKnob and the Assignable buttons.

And, of course, the lovely filter sweeps and cutoff sweeps.

Keep a notepad handy, and write down all the names of the good things you find, because the Yamaha favouriting system sucks.

This should keep you busy for maybe a month, during which time you'll begin to get a feel for the full scope of the Montage's power. This will greatly pay off later, when you're ready to have another look at your songs, because you'll know exactly where to go to get what you want out of the sounds, and know more sounds and effects/cutoff coolness than ever before.

And you can begin, after a month, to see what can be done with the Motion Sequencer. Which is another learning curve. When you begin this path... here's the big thing... you might no longer need the cutoff and tone wheel stuff to be sent to the DAW and back again, because much of what you want to do might be possible with programming of the Motion Controller and the SuperKnob

Good luck, and Godspeed!

If you have more questions about the Super Know and Motion Controllers/Lanes/Sequencing (all onboard the Montage), you're going to get more walls of text, because nobody seems to be able to explain it without writing more than I have above. Sadly.

And there's no good videos about the magic of this for Electronic music. DOH!