[quotePost id=117997]The Motif line was well loved in hip-hop and EDM circles for its sampling functionality...As I said, if you look from a distance at a bulleted list of the competition (Fantom, MPC keyboard, Kurzweil), there is only one entry where the Montage/MODX is simply absent: sampling.
[/quotePost]
You can certainly load samples into Montage/MODX. I don't do anything in those genres... sampling-wise, what is needed for hop-hop/EDM that the Montage/MODX can't do? Is the issue that you pretty much need a third party utility (John Melas Waveform Editor)? That the keyboard doesn't have trigger pads?

[quotePost id=117998]You can certainly load samples into Montage/MODX. I don't do anything in those genres... sampling-wise, what is needed for hop-hop/EDM that the Montage/MODX can't do? Is the issue that you pretty much need a third party utility (John Melas Waveform Editor)? That the keyboard doesn't have trigger pads?[/quotePost]
You connect an audio source to the AD In, record something directly into the keyboard and then split it (slice) into pieces and spread those on keys for one shots (or even do multisamples if you find it necessary) and then go beat-making (aka sequence those one-shots).
Pretty much what people do with the Akai MPCs or used to do with the Ensoniq ASR.

A task for which Motif, with its sampler and sequncer, was very good.
Here:
https://youtu.be/VAHkQ_uX8ik

or here, Bad Mister as hip-hop producer: https://youtu.be/ThYQAbESyA4

(trigger pads don't matter, you can do all that just with the keys).

I do think, personally, that both those tasks are done better in the DAW nowadays.
But there seems to be a number of people who'd rather do those still in the hardware, and the Fantom-0 for example offers them this option.

I didn't quite understand why Yamaha positioned itself deliberately out of this.

[quotePost id=117999]I do think, personally, that both those tasks are done better in the DAW nowadays.
But there seems to be a number of people who'd rather do those still in the hardware, and the Fantom-0 for example offers them this option.

I didn't quite understand why Yamaha positioned itself deliberately out of this.
[/quotePost]
Well, Yamaha's positioning there is at least consistent with their other decision, to leave linear sequencing to DAWs as well. And similarly, there are people who bemoan the fact that they no longer let you do it in their hardware, even though, yes, a DAW will generally do it better than a Motif ever did.

[quotePost id=118000]Well, Yamaha's positioning there is at least consistent with their other decision, to leave linear sequencing to DAWs as well. And similarly, there are people who bemoan the fact that they no longer let you do it in their hardware, even though, yes, a DAW will generally do it better than a Motif ever did.[/quotePost]
Yeah, but then they brought back sequencing, in some form.

My point in this discussion wasn't "what I'd use" or "what I think is best", but the fact that Yamaha simply chose to not compete in one area.
We can discuss a ton about various features: synth engines, fx, audio ins, sequencing, live sets, computer integration, audio interface etc. In each area the MODX/Montage is present, more or less succesfully, often in a class-leading position.

But if you say: "OK, what I do is sampling and beatmaking", then the Montage/MODX is not even part of the discussion.
But all other competing keyboards are.
And the Motif was a favorite in its time.

[quotePost id=117996][quotePost id=117995][quotePost id=117990]
whereas previously the MODX had no competition.
[/quotePost]
I wouldn't say that. Even before the Fantom-0, Kurzweil had the PC4/PC4-7.[/quotePost]

When I did my research for a new synth 3 years ago, the first one I tried at the music store was the MODX8. I was so disappointed in how bad the keybed was whereby it didn't trigger the velocity evenly across the board. It was painful. After a lot of research of various synths, it came down to the Kronos and the Montage. I went with the Montage for various reasons.
But in all my research the Kurzweil never really came to the forefront as a contender... And I never heard anyone on forums mention it as a competitor to the MODX. The MODX seemed to often be (wrongly) compared to the Kronos, Fantom, and other Flagship synths as it's competition.

I thought you were going to say the Korg Krome / Krome EX, but I'm pretty sure the MODX wiped the floor with that synth :p

[quotePost id=117997]As I said, if you look from a distance at a bulleted list of the competition (Fantom, MPC keyboard, Kurzweil), there is only one entry where the Montage/MODX is simply absent: sampling.

Personally, I would certainly welcome another synth engine. I have the DAW for sampling.
But my wishes don't seem to be aligned with the market, generally. I'd be even happier if instead of a new engine, they improve/upgrade the FM-X engine with some of the long requested stuff from IdeaScale.
[/quotePost]
Yeah, I am the same. I don't need another synth engine. I don't even need an onboard sequencer or sampler. I do all of if it via Pro Tools or SampleRobot Montage Edition. And looking at Yamaha's decision to go in that direction, I think it was good more so for the Flagship Montage, whereby it is more likely used as a synth in a studio with a DAW.

Where as with the MODX (& now MODX+), I think the people who generally buy that synth are either more gigging musicians or enthusiasts that want to be able to do onboard sequencing & sampling more so. Which is likely why so many people pushed to get a sequencer added. I would guess it was more MODX owners than Montage owners that pushed for that, and that are likely pushing for sampling abilities as you mention. I can't see most MODX owners wanting to connect it to a DAW as much..!?
It would be smart for Yamaha to add this to the MODX+ (and MODX as well). Of course anything that gets added to the MODX/MODX+ will also be added on the Montage, but I don't think as many Montage owners will utilize it as much..!?

Who knows what the first few OS updates on the MODX+ will bring..!? Yamaha must be looking closely at the Fantom-0 and thinking about what they need to do to entice buyers to buy their new product, and not let Roland have bragging rights of onboard sequencing and sampling... I think it would be smart to add everything they can, including some kind of sampling ability.
Not that I will use a 3rd VA engine, but I also strongly believe that would be the biggest game changer for many perspective buyers if Yamaha added it to the MODX+ sometime in 2023!

[quotePost id=118003]Yamaha must be looking closely at the Fantom-0 and thinking about what they need to do to entice buyers to buy their new product, and not let Roland have bragging rights of onboard sequencing and sampling... [/quotePost]

There's a lot that appeals to me about the Fantom-0... in fact, I bought one, but sampler and sequencer are things I'll never use. I mentioned above in post #117986 some of the things I think the MODX does better than the Fantom-0. To balance that, things that I prefer about the Fantom-0 are its organ, VA, and SuperNATURAL Acoustic functions (some of which are like Yamaha's SA/SA2 arranger-specific sound manipulations); assignable outs; its better (more "arranger-like") drum accompaniment functions (buttons for fills/intro/ending, and the ability to play left-hand bass with a drum pattern while easily switching among different right-hand sounds for different parts of the song); the additional hard buttons and real-time controls which along with other interface choices also contribute to greater overall ease of use.

Yamaha also has the PSR-SX700/900 which have some of those Fantom-0 benefits, but those PSRs are 61-keys only, and have other limitations compared to MODX/Fantom-0, like single split point (with just 1 sound below and up to 3 sounds above), no MIDI zoning, no seamless switching.

I like that Roland doesn't segregate the features between different lines as much as Yamaha does (i.e. if the model has this, it can't have that). Those "basic" arranger functions in the Roland are all the arranger functions I need, and it's nice that I don't have to use a separate arranger to have them. I suppose Roland's willingness to include those things in a board like Fantom-0 could also be, at least in part, a function of the fact that, unlike Yamaha, Roland isn't really much of a player in the arranger market, so there's less rationale for segregating features? But regardless of the reason, it's nice to have a single board that straddles those two usages. (In my case, because every now and then, I need to do a gig without a drummer.)

The Kurzweil PC4/PC4-7 likewise has its pros and cons. Its got the least friendly interface of the bunch, but it's the most flexible in many ways, including MIDI functions, definable controls, sequencer. Its got sample, FM, organ, and VA engines, and the assignable outs, and it even has aftertouch. In the end, no board's got everything...

on the story page, does it sound like VA?

@C:

If you are talking about the "Watch" (video) part of the https://www.yamahasynth.com/story page - then at the end you will see the credits for all sounds used. The introduction starts mainly with the CS80 (drones and weird noise) and CS30 (blippy blips) although the "credits" at the end of the video shows the VL1 is supplying other sounds (waterphone, scary noises).

Video link at time of credits:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdxv0zwLzzw&t=141s

If you're wondering about different sections of that video - the credits show the source synthesizers for each section.

yeah ok. I didnt realize the video was old. Why would Yamaha demonstrate a bunch of cool sounds that are out of reach of everyone? Also why would they say this if there is no VA? "It’s the culmination of almost a half century of groundbreaking ideas in one synth."

[quotePost id=118011]yeah ok. I didnt realize the video was old. Why would Yamaha demonstrate a bunch of cool sounds that are out of reach of everyone? Also why would they say this if there is no VA? "It’s the culmination of almost a half century of groundbreaking ideas in one synth."
[/quotePost]

The "one synth" they are referring to is the Montage White, which can emulate all those synths since a half century via the AWM2 and FM-X engines. A VA engine would help with emulating synths like the CS80, but I believe there are CS samples in Preset waveforms (and definitely ones in various libraries) on the Montage that can already be utilized via AWM2.
They add a bit more on the YouTube vid page "Sep 22, 2019 Go on a crazy ride through the decades of Yamaha Synths that helped change the music world. The otherworldly movie soundtracks of the 70s, the percussive, bell-like tones of the 80s and the intricate beats that lead to the rise of rap and hip hop were inspired by continuous innovations in synth technology from Yamaha. It’s all to celebrate the launch of our latest synth, MONTAGE WHITE."

Around Sept 22, 2019 was also when they announced the Montage OS Update 3.0 / MODX 2.0, and Yamaha had numerous streamed videos of announcements, interviews, discussions and demos of various products including a reface synth.
Seems fitting that they look to be set to do the same for the new MODX+ and possibly the Montage OS Update 4.0 😉

For me the video was more of a walk through history than it was trying to imply that Montage/MODX is the equivalent to the past keyboards. Many of the past keyboards have some amount of carry-forward as sample-based "snapshots" that are less dynamic than the original "modeled" (synthesized without samples) methods. But for me the video was more about showing off the past portfolio and presenting the latest generation as being influenced by the progression more than being equivalent to it.

And given the video was disconnected from alleged MODX+ features - there's no reveal here of VA or any other technology coming to Montage/MODX.

If speculation is true - we'll know in about 3 weeks what this is all about. Not that speculation is bad - but (in my opinion) we need not look back at every past communication as somehow fitting within what we may think be the MODX+ feature set.

It's been mentioned if the MODX+ features end up being -fill in the blank- then the need for a MODX doesn't make sense. The way I see this is that MODX's popularity may have exhausted the parts pool and obsoleted parts have driven some change to MODX in order to keep production going. The industry often refers to this kind of update as a "speed bump" update. A board spin may be necessary if footprint compatible parts are not available - or, if footprint compatible parts are available, then you may be able to keep the original PCBs and simply change the BOM (stuffing options). And while stirring the pot on such a design - maybe there's a decision to populate previously no-install parts. Or maybe not. The jury is out if the rumored increase in polyphony is due to second ASIC or due to a difference in core vs the existing ASIC (and still one part). At any rate, what I'm getting at is that (still speculation) it's possible that a primary driver for this is not feature set but more driven by parts procurement (lack of available parts).

Montage being older seems like it would have the same influencers to update as well to continue production. But the parts story isn't something you find out about the day before you run out. At least not if you're smart and tracking sales vs parts inventory and keeping up with notices from manufacturers for end-of-life notices. In which case it's also possible that, if procurement is a primary driver, that enough parts have been allocated for future Montage production in order to satisfy the projected rate of sales over some timeframe.

Therefore, one shouldn't necessarily look at everything through one lens. Through feature-set alone driving a new product. There are other factors involved and sometimes feature-set is playing catch-up to justify a "forced" update due to parts availability. And, it's worth mentioning that there may be other strategic reasons why MODX+ is to exist beyond either procurement or feature-set. That's all "secret sauce".

Yeah it was a pretty good walk through, which lined up with the Sept 22, 2019 week's launch of the Montage White, the Montage OS update 3.0/MODX 2.0, and some reface synths. But I do remember them discussing the various synths throughout the years in more detail during the streamed videos, which was kind of an overlying theme.

Actually a Yamaha rep just confirmed on a different forum that we'll know in about 1 week, as the launch is supposedly September 1st.

Also the rumored increase in polyphony is actually beyond just rumor, as various people have posted pics of the user manual for the new MODX+ and it definitely shows an increase in FM-X polyphony to 128. Whether or not that is due to a second SWP70 Tone Generator or not is just a guess at this point.

Even with all the announcements, possible video streamed discussions & demos, etc. that Yamaha may have next week, they may release the MODX+ as more basic initially with plans for bigger features/enhancements in future updates..!? Although that is all just speculative secret sauce at this point. If they do release it with moderate enhancements (such as increased User memory, polyphony) we will likely only know for sure if they added the second SWP70 Tone Generator, when someone cracks open their new MODX+ and takes pics of under the hood! 😉

I've seen the owner's manual pictures but still consider this to be in the "rumor" department because specifications and documentation is subject to change ignoring the possibility for the images not being authentic to begin with. Therefore, for a variety of reasons - I consider all information as speculative until the official announcement.

As a MOXF owner I just want to point out that what Yamaha is apparently doing with MODX+ seems exactly similar to what happend in 2013/ 2014 when MOXF repaced the MOX:
- including the second tone generator, I think it was SWP51
-in essence bringing the MOTIF XF feature set to the middle class MOXF, remaining differences where just higher quality DACs in Motif (and the sampling)

So probably MODX+ will do just that: using the second SWP70 to bring the Montage Spec to the middle class (minus the higher quality DAC and the better audio interface).

Yamaha seems to have a habit to follow the same marketing strategies...

It might be worth mentioning that after the launch of MOXF the MOTIF XF received another firnware update (I think it was v1.5), which included some addiontal effects which the MOXF did not get, again I believe just because of marketing reasons. Here one might speculate about AN-X...??