I was aware of the function of the ramps when motion sequence was ON. The cross-check was that when motion sequence is OFF - it's still applying the curves (really one curve - the source curve - and resets "t" according to if sequence curve is bipolar or . Motion sequence off means t=0, not motion sequence as a functional block = "Thru". This is the new confirmed information. Additional comments about guarantee is just a word of caution that the burden of resetting parameters back to their non-affected state is on the curves and not on the fact that motion sequence is off.

It's golden to know that this is the intent - motion sequence OFF means only two things: time=0 and clock=off.

But also powering through helped me realize that when the MS Lane is set to bipolar, the source curve will start in the middle (where the vertical line is). This is the cross-over point where the pitch shift from source = 0. So as long as bipolar is used (regardless of the ramp/curve in MS Lane) - the pitch will be reset to unaffected since the middle of the graph has a zero. I could demonstrate this by turning motion sequence off and creating a source (control assign curve) as having the middle value (in terms of time) as 64, or 127, or 0 (of course values inbetween). Other values were all ones that would affect pitch - so I could see just the middle value when MS Lane's curve (Edit - Part1 - Lane1 - Sequence1) is bipolar.

For bipolar source curves - bipolar motion sequence curves seem like the way to go in order to handle the reset.

Seems to be a discontinuity between source curve polarity and motion sequence curve polarities - the formula to calculate a resulting value (for the final destination parameter - here = pitch, but could be anything) based on some example curve values (user curve with just a few steps to simplify) as a function of time would help clear some things up.

Here's my modified understanding of motion sequence resetting:

Relating the curves:
1) The PartX - LaneX - SequenceX curve is a curve which the value (height or Y value of the curve) determines what value is picked along the x-axis of the source curve.

2) When motion sequence is turned off, the output of the PartX - LaneX - SequenceX function is equal (forced to) to the origin. Therefore, if PX-LX-SQ (sequence curve) is unipolar then the origin will be 0 - and if bipolar the origin is 64. Again, this tells you where left-to-right on the source curve to find the resulting value

3) Back to the control curve (source curve) - Bipolar ramp will always have 0 in the center-line (vertical, showing the Y axis) and this center-line vertical position always represents the "ramp position value" as 64 - and so turning off motion sequence with origin=64 (bipolar sequence curve) will always end up with an unaffected value no matter what the ratio is on the source curve (horizontal position of 64 stays at value 0 regardless of ratio) and regardless of the curve in the motion sequence (PartX - LaneX - SequenceX) curve. This is because it seems to be based on where the origin is and not on values of the sequence curve.

4) Unipolar ramp (standard curve 5) will always return values to unaffected state when motion sequence (PX - LX - SX) curve is unipolar since a unipolar origin is 0 and since this sets the reset left-to-right position on the source curve - a ramp on the source curve is always 0 no matter the ratio.

5) Unipolar ramp (std curve 5) will be reset to whatever the value is at the y-axis (middle of ramp) of the source curve when motion sequence (PX - LX - SX) curve is bipolar since the origin of bipolar is 64. And the value of 64 along the X-axis (I'm calling this curve position) of the ramp is the vertical line along the ramp (middle of ramp).

6) The relationship (math) of the function output (to destination) vs. both source ramp and sequence ramp seems to be (for the case of bipolar source ramp and bipolar sequence ramp):

Variables: t is clock which increments until end of sequence starting at t=0 through t=(128*number_of_cycles)-1. "t" always increases until reaching end of last cycle then resets to 0 assuming loop is turned on else clock stops for this sequence.
number_of_cycles = cycle count as setup on keyboard can be assigned to "A" or "B" sequence curve
cycle_num = current cycle which starts at 0 and increments until the last cycle is completed, then resets to 0
curve_forward = current curve is forward, then 1 else reverse then 0
Sequence_Output = output/value of Sequence curve at current time
Sequence_Amplitude = amplitude setting for the sequence chain
Curve_Adjust = The value above "A" or "B" in the sequence curve screen. For biolar, can be 0-127 where 0-63 is a negative scale factor for the curve (vs the origin of 64) and 64-127 is positive scale factor.
Side_Of_Curve_Sign = +1 when Curve_Adjust is >63 and -1 when Curve_Adjust is < 64

General comment: User curves have "input" and "output" values - so I'll put things in terms of "input" and "output" value. Input (or curve position) is the X-axis and output is the Y-axis (value).

Sequence Curve(t, cycle_num)
{
SC_Curve_Position = (curve_forwad==1) ? t-(cycle_num*128) : (127-(t-(cycle_num*128));
# basically handling the position value within the curve for forward or backward cases vs. "t". Forward starts with curve position 0 and increments, reverse starts with position 127 and decrements.
Sequence_Output = Sequence_Value(Sequence_Input=SC_Curve_Position);
}

# Looks like then we scale, for bipolar

Modified_Sequence_Output = (Sequence_Output * 64 / Sequence_Amplitude) * (Curve_Adjust_Sign)
Note: I have not resolved the math for the Curve_Adjust value yet - I pegged Curve_Adjust at 0 looking at full-scale negative curve.

# and then to get final value, back to the control curve (source curve)

Final_Value = Source_Curve_Output (Source_Curve_Input = 63 + Modified_Sequence_Output) # note: need to also scale by ratio - not included in formula

# 64 as origin along source curve, but math worked out doing some spot-check examples and plugging in 63

This is where I sit so far with the attempt to relate the curves.

Ignoring the pulse (sequence curve) scaling factor - which is located above "A" or "B" in the sequence editor menu, the following formula, with some small error for small results (off by 3-4) around amplitude = 43 (maybe more - not fully characterized) :

Motion Sequence Output Formula: Result = Origin_Y_Value + (Amplitude / 127) * (Value - Origin_Y_Value)

Where Origin_Y_Value is 0 for Uni-Polar pulse and Origin_Y_Value is 64 for Bi-Polar pulse.

Assuming uni-polar scale factor is Result*(Scale/127), but I need to put this through the paces.

Use uni-polar pulse scale factor of 127 with this formula to see the formula work.

Chris wrote:

Can someone please briefly explain why these intricate mathematical details matter so much? If something in the formula doesnt respond the way one expects, how will it ultimately affect the performance? Does the part sound good with motion sequence or doesnt it?

You'll have to ask Jason. I am not able to follow what he's cooking up there. Nor would I recommend it necessarily to anyone else, but if it helps Jason get involved in programming and it works for him, that's all that matters.

Some people approach music and programming very analytically, others totally the opposite. When it comes to Motion Sequences I've found thus far, creating 'by ear' is quite satisfying and is its own reason to explore. If I had to calculate everything I was going to try I wouldn't get around to trying it. I'm not saying there isn't a reason to over analyze things, I personally find that I'm better served doing this after having experimented and discovered something "worthy".

As far as experimenting with Motion Sequences... I highly recommend starting simple, getting a feel for what you can affect, how you can affect it. If you think of Motion Sequence as a very expanded Control Arpeggiator... An Arpeggiator in that you can create looping or one shot phrases that can automate (Control) virtually any target destination. The ramifications of such a statement are huge.

It means you can do anything from creating a customized filter sweep, to simply flipping something from Dry to Wet. You could create controller movements that synchronize with the rhythm of other Arps or MSs, or you could automate transition. How about a Motion Sequence that moves the listener's position from inside the acoustic guitar to the last row of a gigantic concert hall and back.

It is really wide open - learn to use it. It a form of programmable automation. Don't over analyze it (at this point) that's a job for those brains that seek to 'reverse design' everything they encounter. Please try approaching Motion Sequences from a musical standpoint first. I think you will discover that decisions are made by the designers about parameters and their "scale"

Now without overanalyzing this: what this means is just because a parameter goes 0 thru 127, you cannot assume that every increment is equal. I can tell you that is not the case, nor should it be. When creating a RELEASE TIME setting on an envelope generator. You don't need 128 equal steps of Release time settings. You need a concentration of Release Time values weighted toward the short times (a higher concentration of settings at the short end of the scale)... A release time setting change from 123 to 124 is a significantly longer slice of time than the difference between 63 and 64.

These types of scale decision are made to enhance the area where musically useful activity takes place. This is an instrument not test device.

Long story short, you don't need mathematical formulas to program anything. In fact, you may find they get in the way. Your mileage will vary. Music is an artform where the ears make the decisions.

Some users will use the device without doing any programming - and the keyboard is well suited for this having great presets.

Some will turn some knobs, listen to the response, and slightly modify presets to do what sounds better suited for their performance and the instrument is well suited for this approach as well. I generally stop there because there is not much value (to me) with a more limited device in doing much more than that. For the MO6 series, there was plenty more I could have done - but didn't get as deep as I could.

Some go deeper (there's no judgement of "better" or "worse" in any approach) - and would like to know how one setting relates to another. With Montage, there are multiple dimensions with built-in interactions. For me, if I'm going to use these features, I'd like to understand how the programmable pieces relate. This helps me add another avenue/approach to creativity.

The final call is made by my ears. However, if I can relate a range of values to the "sweet spot" to my ears - and in a multi-dimensional universe this is an over-simplification of the interactions - then this can help (for me) better setup appropriate curves and pulses to stay within those targets - or know when I want to disrupt (add color) and intentionally go "outside".

I've created motion sequences without knowing much how the values relate - and am able to use my ears to relate how changing various aspects to generate more-or-less what I was after. Some things happen I don't expect - and understanding what's under the hood helps reduce the unexpected. Sometimes I just mark it up as "character" and move on. Other times, I'd like to know why something didn't go as planned. BM has been an asset in helping to explain all sorts of details about the keyboard.

Music theory can get in the way of expression - but a perfectly valid approach is to learn/study theory (in conjunction with ear training, transcription, etc) as one means of "learning the language" - then just run off your internal spirit - informed by theory and anything else - during a gig.

I believe the analogy holds up for keyboard programming for those keyboards that have as much knobs, settings, and automation as this board. I'm not claiming it's necessary - only that it's a perfectly valid approach.

Super knob automation is the doorway to understanding motion control since SN automation deals with sequence pulses directly without adding a second stage (control curve).

Another benefit to super knob experimentation is you can see the current value of super knob even while automation is occurring. Now you do have the option of not looking at this information if it will disrupt your mojo.

Since the output which feeds into super knob is, for the same pulse type/amplitude/scale factor of a motion sequence pulse, is the same as the sequence pulse of motion sequence - how this half of the system works translates directly to motion sequence.

I respect the guidance not to stare into the sun, but really - if so inspired - understanding how your keyboard works isn't likely to impair your playing.

Would it be correct to assume that "engineering" within the Montage team would certainly know, understand these matters which you are investigating and that they could not possibly be only working with numbers and other such technical discussions divorced from the output of the results. The amazing and deep functionality which produce the distinguished sound of the Montage MUST come by mathematics/ engineering and musical knowledge as a final arbitrator. I quite like and find it very interesting to read your posts and then read MB's. Why don't you join the design and engineering team at Yamaha or serve as a bets tester.

Phil wrote:

Would it be correct to assume that "engineering" within the Montage team would certainly know, understand these matters which you are investigating and that they could not possibly be only working with numbers and other such technical discussions divorced from the output of the results. The amazing and deep functionality which produce the distinguished sound of the Montage MUST come by mathematics/ engineering and musical knowledge as a final arbitrator. I quite like and find it very interesting to read your posts and then read MB's. Why don't you join the design and engineering team at Yamaha or serve as a bets tester.

Phil, thanks the suggestions.

Yamaha Engineering is located in Japan and I am not aware that they outsource any of this effort. I'm also not aware of how to walk towards the beta testing stream - although I would provide meaningful feedback as I believe I have done here - despite the spectrum of receptiveness you see in the forum.

"Technical discussions divorced from the output of the results" deserves some push-back.

This thread your message arrives in is one where I was working out how pulses (the, by default, green triangle things with cycle counts) relate to curves (the, by default, blue ramp thing that has destinations). I ran into a case where I thought pressing the "OFF" button for this engine didn't do what I expect - but I understand "that's how it is".

For what I've worked out: some is math - but most is just understanding the steps and settings and HOW they work (important for anything in a synth).

Here's the pushback: the end that I arrived at through understanding the relationship of pulses, curves, and even the "quirky" reset states allowed for me to understand exactly and under what circumstances a certain kind of control curve could be used to realize another keyboardist's request for auto sustaining notes. This is one of many musical ends. All of the discussions I've brought up which have deeper settings involved (Yamaha presents these as numbers so I echo them in order to communicate using a common language) have a musical end. Nothing is divorced from outcomes. I do, myself, get pushback from BM that question my goals. But some, not all, is being overly dismissive and turning a perfectly reasonable request into something else.

I have attempted to find a channel for asking some of these questions to the engineering team and have been told that the best way to get answers from the engineering team is to go through local Yamaha reps who can "translate" the request to the team in Japan. Therefore, I am following procedure. The forum-side of the request is there for the benefit of others if/when some of these topics get answered.

You do not see me "bumping" my requests because I do not weigh my requests any higher than other requests. Also, I trust Yamaha support to come through - they've done a really excellent job thus far considering the volume of requests they receive.

Finally, this thread in particular, I have moved past a bit in my overall understanding. I haven't updated the thread because I'm working on putting the latest understanding into a more usable reference (even for me).

By the way - more core to this thread's observation - I ran into it again today. But knowing how the system works helped me manage through it better.

Again, I think it's odd that "Motion Seq OFF" is more like "Motion Seq HOLD, with Destination Curve Input=Pulse Origin". Therefore, your destination will be affected by some offset (volume, pitch, reverb amount, cutoff, etc ...) depending on your curve shape and pulse origin (uni=0 vs bi polar=64). My intuition thinks of Motion Seq OFF as if I had blown away all the destinations that are driven by lanes - but this is not the case. And it's good to know this since there are implications.

What I ran into was fairly simple, I was modulating pitch or volume using a high tempo, 50% (faster) rate on the motion sequence sync'd to tempo, and had my destination curve as an output (using step curve) of 127 (for input 0-8) then 0 (input 9-17) then 127 (input 18-26) then 0 (input 27-35 - and so on) pattern. I had a negative ratio so that the volume or pitch would be adjusted downward for the 127 outputs and then back to normal pitch/volume for the "0" outputs. The pulse which determines the input behavior was set to ramp between 0 and 72 because this would be the end of my steps and between 63-72 would be the "0" output after the last "127" output which would repeat the cycle. So I had 4 ramps in my pulse (unipolar) which went from 0 to 72, 0 to 72, 0 to 72. here they were linear which would just run from left-to-right through my destination curve. Since output 0 started with 127, my sound would start with a "full off" volume (or a "fully lowered" pitch) then would turn the pitch/volume back to normal - and so on in a loop with a fixed frequency according to my curve/pulse setup and the tempo/sync settings. I'm leaving off the entire setup because it's not necessary to draw the picture.

I wanted to turn off this modulation, so I pressed the [MOTION SEQ ON/OFF] button and was bit by this quirk. Not an issue, since I understand it. For volume, what was happening was that the volume would be -127 (off) when I hit the [MOTION SEQ ON/OFF] button. This is because setting motion sequence off really just places the motion sequence in a standard resting place. I see this more as a form of hold, but I suppose this gets to be semantics.

So knowing how this works (that MS=OFF means the destination curve is fed, as an input, 0 if pulse is uni and 64 if pulse is bi) then I could see that since my destination has input=0 as -127, I needed to change the destination curve so the 1st 9 inputs started with 0 instead of 127 and "inverted" the steps - dragging what was 127 as an output down to 0 and what was 0 as an input up to 127.

I really don't mind so much it's the way it is. This quirk, as I mentioned before, I was able to leverage somewhat in other cases. Understanding what happens when you press [MOTION SEQ ON/OFF] helps utilize that button in novel ways since you may want to have a specific output that is different than the default setting (the true "off" setting) and this allows for doing that.

I've got to think as folks use motion sequence (and depend on the on/off switch), they'll come across this and I do think it is helpful to have a grasp of what's going on.

The difference between [Motion Sequence Hold] and [Motion Sequence On/Off] is very real, and more than semantics. Using the [Motion Sequence Hold] button will stop the Motion Sequence where it is at the moment. And significantly will restart, automatically, when Hold is released. Using the [Motion Sequence On/Off] button to stop the Sequence will also stop the sequence where it is at the moment, but significantly, it does not automatically restart when you turn it back On. You must retrigger the start of the Motion Sequence. The difference is significant.

In both cases, the value when you stop is one thing - but when a Reset All Controllers message is received (like when recalling the program), Motion Sequence Lanes default as follows: "0 (minimum when Polarity is set to Unipolar and center when Polarity is set to Bipolar)"

All Montage Controllers have a "reset" position. It would be the same as if you assigned a parameter Destination to the MW and you left it three quarters of the way up, the value would stop where it is. But when you recalled the program, because MW "resets" to 0 (minimum) the fact the MW is up would be ignored, and the parameter would reset to 0.

In a similar scenario when programming Arpeggios with HOLD On to a Part, storing an OFF command in a Scene, would stop the arp but would mean having to retrigger the keyboard to restart the Arpeggio in the next Scene even if the Arp On/Off is stored On. However, if you use the "Mute 4/4" Arp phrase as a placeholder, this blank Arp phrase will simply count the measures, and when the next Scene with an arp On condition is recalled, it will play automatically, no retriggering of the keyboard is necessary.

Motion Sequences and Arpeggios have very parallel roles and rules when it comes to how they behave.

Bad Mister wrote:

The difference between [Motion Sequence Hold] and [Motion Sequence On/Off] is very real, and more than semantics.

FYI: I was not including motion sequence's hold in the previous comments. What I was saying is that I see Motion Seq On/Off as a form of hold since I think of "OFF" as what would happen as if I was not applying the motion sequence. My comment about semantics what about my own personal perspective on how I look at the Motion Seq On/Off in thinking of it as a hold+reset more than off.

Hopefully it helps someone to understand when they make their own sequences and have something "unexpected" result when pressing [MOTION SEQ ON/OFF] (to off) to be sure to look at the output for input=0 on their destination curve(s) if the driving pulse is unipolar. Or the output for input=64 on the destination curve if the driving pulse is bipolar.

All good here - since the behavior is well understood.

You were initially baffled by why the MS pitch movement did not return to 0, which was explained that it returns to its origin left to its own devices; Motion Sequences have a phrase length - your pitch starting point was south of where you thought it was when you changed Uni to Bi.
Uni has its start point at 0 (the center line), when changed to Bi (had you touched the keys) you would have immediately noticed the change in starting pitch occurred right then. Bi starting below the centerline and extending above...

I guess one could insist on calling it "quirky", which is fine, I guess. I just don't see it as that at all.

Still the difference between MS ON/OFF and MS HOLD is an important one, musically speaking, because the implication of having to restart Motion manually exists after OFF, it does not when you use HOLD. Those are important in my viewpoint and worth mentioning in any discussion of Motion Sequence behavior that involves the "quirkiness" of the Motion Sequence behavior.

You had poor Chris thinking there's higher mathematics involved in creating MS - there certainly doesn't have to be. 🙂
Relating things to musical results is what is really important. Knowing that the nature of your MS and the implications it has on the parameters to which you apply it cannot be done without listening to what happens... Quirky is only so when it's still a mystery, this should not be, for anyone.

For more info on creating your own, please see Peter Krischker's article in the latest addition of the Music Production Guide

We're kind of in an endless loop here, BM. I'm not sure you're catching what I'm throwing and I see you likely feel the same way.

I do and have understood the unipolar vs. bipolar destination curve. It was more about being clear about what "off" meant so I could have a sense of what that was doing.

Keeping a unipolar destination control curve, when motion sequence is OFF you end up with a destination offset unless the destination curve input=0 is 0 (output) when using a pulse of unipolar. With a unipolar destination control curve, when motion sequence is OFF, you end up with a destination offset unless the input=64 is 0 (output) when using a pulse that is bipolar. It returns to either the t=0 or t=64 position depending on the polarity of the pulse which feeds into the destination. I also understand what happens when the destination curve is bipolar.

Since turning off motion sequence still has an effect on the MS lane's destinations - it's good to know the 4 cases of what happens and why.

Not much math here - just using Yamaha's own nomenclature to explain what's going on. Not making my own stuff up - it's visible settings. This is a synth. Not sure how else I'm supposed to express what's going on but use the lingo Yamaha uses in the GUI or manuals.

Knowing how the "MS OFF" works and believing if this matters (or not) is a judgement call. No one is wrong here as I have the flexibility to be comfortable with those who think this is useless for themselves and should be afforded the space to believe this is important for me.

I'm not complaining about how it works. Not asking to change anything. I've been positive about the experience and possibilities. I think if we had the benefit of a shared room - the signal:noise ratio would be higher.

I understand your distinction about the trigger after turning MS back on. It's good to round out the discussion - wasn't meaning to imply anything about what happens through the transition to MS=ON. The "quirk" has a limited scope of while MS=OFF.

I think you're right.

This shouldn't be this way.

When the Motion Sequencer is OFF it should not influence the resultant value(s) of that which it targets when on.

I don't know how to find the missing information. Several threads have been removed over time. There was a case of a fairly active user asking to be deleted and this removed lots of threads. There may be other examples of users rolling out of the database and messages deleted or maybe the original author deleted the thread. Same goes for linked images. Links to information are not stable and the forum is no longer indexed by external search engines -- so there's not a paper trail maintained by those external caches.

I have a disconnect of why, when motion sequence is off, the pitch would be affected - any insight?

This was explained in the thread. My initial reason for pointing out the "quirk" was I thought that MS turned "off" should mean that destinations are not offset. However, this isn't how the system works. When you assign an MS Lane to a destination you are subject to the output of the "Control Assign" curve when the MS Lane is at its reset value. The reset value of the MS Lane is either 0 when the pulse is unipolar or 64 when the pulse is bipolar (a pulse is not the Control Assign waveform, but the MS Lane output). When motion sequence is OFF - MS Lanes are reset. So it's your responsibility to make sure the Control Assign curve at the far left is at 0 (I say far left because given your description, your pulse is set to unipolar as the MS Lane is outputting 0). If your pulse was set to bipolar (again, not the control assign -- but the MS Lane setup) then you would have to make sure the "middle" of your control assign curve is going to output 0 if you expect Motion Seq=OFF to apply no offset.

7. Go to 'Mod Control -> Control Assign

You didn't communicate what the source controller is. Since you used the "Assign 1" filter - this is going to set this Part's assignable knob #1 as the source controller. So assuming the source controller is the Part-level Assignable Knob 1, then note the value of this assignable knob and this value will be the position along the Control Assign curve (left to right). Value=0 is far left. Value=127 is far right. Value=64 is in the middle. And so on.

It's going to map to the source controller position. Controllers like Assign 1, modwheel, etc. can be "seen" directly.