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Questions about CFX and Bösendorfer piano sounds

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 A
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

I have plans to upgrade my gear but before that I have lots of questions.
First of, as you may have guessed the Piano sound... the most important one to me. Is it:
1- Are 88 keys fully sampled? in this video: Acoustic Piano Demo It sounds like the mids are not fully sampled. Is it true?
2- I have the impression that piano sound is taking few Performances (the term probably I'm not using correctly) -- out of 8 available?--, how can I have 16 instruments in the old SONG mode if there is also a piano sound there?
3- Is there anything (other than sample length and layer count) new in the A Piano sound?

 
Posted : 11/05/2016 7:35 pm
 A
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Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Regarding the 2nd question, In MOTIF series we could play 16 instruments in SONG mode. My question is can we have 16 instruments simultaneously played in Montage (I know there is no sequencer) from Cubase for example?

 
Posted : 12/05/2016 1:51 pm
 Greg
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New Member
 

I can only partly help you out. The CFX Concert performance uses 4 of the 16 available parts. Bosendorfer (Imperial Grand Piano is the performance name) uses 3. Of course there's a number of additional performances of each that include pads, strings, etc, so those use more.

Both sound dramatically better (to me) than the Full Concert Grand (Motif) performance.

 
Posted : 12/05/2016 4:01 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

1- Are 88 keys fully sampled? in this video: Acoustic Piano Demo It sounds like the mids are not fully sampled. Is it true?

We cannot account for your perception or assessment of how the sounds were sampled based on your judging a video through unknown (to us) speakers. We can only tell you that all 88 keys were sampled under optimum conditions by the manufacturer of said piano. You could not have better equipment or conditions under which to sample an acoustic piano. Not to belittle the video or whatever you are listen through, but if that is your conclusion, we are happy to tell you that you could not be more wrong.

2- I have the impression that piano sound is taking few Performances (the term probably I'm not using correctly) -- out of 8 available?--, how can I have 16 instruments in the old SONG mode if there is also a piano sound there?

Simple. You can't. If your piano sound uses 4 Parts, that only leaves 12 Parts for the "old SONG mode" method of working. The benefit of playing the (Multi Part) 18 Element "CFX Concert" piano is in how well it performs under your fingers. We expect 8 out of 10 piano players will immediately feel and hear the difference, and prefer its nuance and response. The workflow is to record it ultimately as audio (thus the over-the-top Montage feature of 32 audio bus outputs).

If your workflow includes recording as MIDI first (presumably to correct mistakes you've made) then the role of the direct Performance Recorder comes more in focus. You can record as Midi, correct your errors, render as audio... Then you can retask your hardware. Then build the rest of your tracks.

If you wish to take advantage of the nuance and control afforded to you by playing a Multi Part Performance like "Seattle Sections" then using seven Parts for just your strings makes sense. But if you are into the old "one track, one channel, one Part" method, you would choice a single Part string sound and work as usual in your DAW. But the advantages of these huge Multi Part Performances is for when you want the absolute best performable sound available - these Multi Part sounds are capable of a wider range of performing nuance than previously available anywhere. They beg, no, they demand that you ultimately record them as audio or at least you render them as audio. This allows you to retasked your hardware for the next sound.

By fixing them permanently as audio tracks in your DAW you can then use the full power of Montage's Motion Control Synthesis Engine on your next musical Part.

Your question shows you are almost understanding what's available here. If your Performance uses 8 Parts, you will run out Parts before you run out of tracks or channels. So again, rendering audio will be apart of your workflow. And it could not be more elegant, given you have dual insertion effects available for all Parts (including the AD Input Part), and you have access to 32 audio bus outputs via USB.

3- Is there anything (other than sample length and layer count) new in the A Piano sound?

Yes, in spite of your incorrect assessment, every note is meticulously sampled and voiced to create an extremely expressive and playable piano. I am not sure the length of the sample is any different than what Yamaha normally does. Each key on a piano rings for a specific amount of time at a specific velocity, (as a piano builder, Yamaha is on top of this like you would not even want to know our believe) the whole sampling engine is designed specifically for recording the piano. The acoustic CFX concert grand represents some twenty years of R&D and manufacturing on Yamaha's part to build, and some three years to sample and voice... Let's just say no stone was left untouched to bring this piano to Montage.

This doesn't mean you have to like it, but it does mean you should at least *play it* before you comment about how you think it wasn't sampled properly in the mid-range. You are of course, welcome to your opinion, I'm just saying that listening to a video through a computer says a lot about what you might be hearing.

It is a wonderful rendering of an absolutely gorgeous acoustic piano.

And so is the "promotional" Bosendorfer. These two pianos have very different characters (and I mean both the acoustic pianos and these meticulously sampled digital versions).

So bottom line, if you use the on board sequencer to playback 16 track .mid files; you would opt to select single Part programs for each of the 16 Performance slots. But if you were going to create a finished product for mass production (as in releasing a commercially available CD, for example) that's when you might go back and substitute these Montage Multi Part instruments for rendering individual musical parts as Audio. And then in multiple passes you could choose the most detailed Montage sound to render audio.

Multi-tracking ala Les Paul style... Reuse your hardware for each track - use the Montage for its full potential. Optimize each musical Part so that it represents the absolute best it could sound. Montage is not for everyone, it for only those who can hear and appreciate the difference. We are very confident that most musicians will "hear" this difference.

New era, new workflow. Welcome to the new era.
Hope that gives you some idea about what we are do excited about.

 
Posted : 13/05/2016 4:09 am
Michael Trigoboff
Posts: 0
Honorable Member
 

The benefit of playing the (Multi Part) 18 Element "CFX Concert" piano is in how well it performs under your fingers.

Is it really 18 elements? I would have guessed 16 was the maximum. Or am I mixing up Elements and Parts?

(I haven't yet had a chance to really dive in yet, so forgive me if this is a dumb question.)

 
Posted : 13/05/2016 4:32 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

Each Part (like a Motif XF VOICE) can be made from one to eight Elements when we are talking about a "normal" AWM2 Program. A "drum kit" AWM2 program can have 73 Elements, one per Key , C0~C6.

 
Posted : 13/05/2016 6:26 am
 A
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Let's just say no stone was left untouched to bring this piano to Montage.

This doesn't mean you have to like it, but it does mean you should at least *play it* before you comment about how you think it wasn't sampled properly in the mid-range. You are of course, welcome to your opinion, I'm just saying that listening to a video through a computer says a lot about what you might be hearing.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer Phil, I had no intention to question the efforts that has been taken by Yamaha and just curious about how it differs from its predecessors. In one of the videos I remember it was said by Yamaha artist or engineer that they are 14 seconds (if not mistaken) which is very good.

 
Posted : 13/05/2016 12:29 pm
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