[quotePost id=117976]Guys, You do realize that the Montage already has in it all of the pieces needed to construct a Virtual Analog Synth? It has multiple oscillators with all of the standard analog wave forms, selectable shaped filters, Amplitude control and a mixer, all the envelopes and LFO's you need, Effects like reverb and a ring modulator, arpeggios, what else is there?[/quotePost]
You are describing a subtractive synth (which AWM2 clearly is, and a very powerful one), not a VA one.
You can also do some subtractive synthesis with the FM-X engine as well, but still won't get to a complete VA waveform generation.

AWM2 is a subtractive synth with sampled waveforms as oscillators.
VA needs VA waveforms as oscillators, with their particular set of features (sync, PWM, FM, RM, morphing).

You can go to the Yamaha site>Support>Manual Library and do a search for AN1x . You'll find the owner manuals for a much celebrated Yamaha VA synth, should be self explanatory.

At some point I wanted to dive into how much I could twist FM-X to "emulate" the VA engine in my EX5R. That always seemed like a time sink so I never went through with that. We'll see if procrastination has paid off.

I have emulated analog sounds via FM-X for 33 years. A VA engine means nothing to me except that it sparks some interest in new enhancements on the current Yamaha synths, which for me could mean extending the Montage as being current for several more years or maybe months. That means possibly new effects and functionality that could be beneficial at some point. I don't need a VA engine and I don't know if I'd even entertain utilizing one since it's been over 33 years since I sold my Korg Polysix and Roland SH-101, and bought the DX7-II FD (yes, floppy disk, state of the art lol) ... I missed out on the Roland D50 by 2 months!

I haven't emulated all the various sounds of a EX5R, but I think I have come pretty close on some. There are others who are DX7 programming wizards who can emulate anything, so the sky is the limit with FM-X...

Speculating a bit more on AN-X, if Yamaha don't add it as an engine on the Montage or MODX+, what other synths might make sense & have the capability to add this as an engine?

Could the Genos handle an AN-X engine? Or could we see a new synth released that is purely an AN-X virtual analog based hardware synth..!?

And regardless of what synth it ends up on, would the AN-X technology have the ability to emulate more than just Yamaha's analog synths, such as the Prophet 5, etc. !?

[quotePost id=118015]Speculating a bit more on AN-X, if Yamaha don't add it as an engine on the Montage or MODX+, what other synths might make sense & have the capability to add this as an engine?[/quotePost]
Well, one of the most active ideas on IdeaScale is one initiated by YamahaSynth themselves in which they ask "What if we make a CS-80?"

[quotePost id=118016]Well, one of the most active ideas on IdeaScale is one initiated by YamahaSynth themselves in which they ask "What if we make a CS-80?"[/quotePost]
Yes, and to add to that, there are quite a number of ideas on there that all request a VA synth be added to the Montage/MODX. I think the top idea with the most Up Votes is one of the VA engine ideas..!?

Add in the Survey that Yamaha sent out ~3 years ago asking customers what they would most like to see on their Synth, and I believe the majority said add a VA.

So most of their customers have been asking for it, and especially their Montage/MODX synth customers ... we'll see if they have listened. Time will tell!

[quotePost id=118015]Could the Genos handle an AN-X engine? [/quotePost]
I suspect it could... but I doubt they would put it there. VA customers largely care about tweaking and sound programming, and Genos is kind of based around keeping you away from all that, minimizing editability, but instead focusing on kind of predicting what it is you probably want. The sampled sounds are not editable the way they are on the Montage, nor does it have the FM engine... basically, unlike Montage/MODX, they don't market it as any kind of "synth," so it would be an unlikely place to debut a new "synth engine."

Or to put it differently, it is Montage/MODX users who wish for VA synthesis from Yamaha, and probably not so much the Genos users.

[quotePost id=118027]Or to put it differently, it is Montage/MODX users who wish for VA synthesis from Yamaha, and probably not so much the Genos users.[/quotePost]
I think that sums it up!
Again ... I hope Yamaha have been listening!

what an AN-X engine could sound like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljMvAw4SB5Y

I dont know if this is ever coming to the Montage. All I know is Yamaha should take their time like they are doing to get this next 4.0 firmware right. Look at what everyone else is releasing. Yamaha needs to knock it out of the park.

[quotePost id=119317]I dont know if this is ever coming to the Montage. All I know is Yamaha should take their time like they are doing to get this next 4.0 firmware right.[/quotePost]
I agree they should take their time on 4.0 ... They have had already quite a bit of time compared to previous OS updates, and likely will not release a new update until NAMM 2023 or later, which hopefully is enough to nail it. So with all this extra time, maybe they have some really big additions to perfect..!? 😉

Look at what everyone else is releasing. Yamaha needs to knock it out of the park.

I totally agree, and this is why I err on the opposite side of your first comment about the AN-X not coming to the Montage. They need a game changer, because Roland have been hammering Yamaha with both the Fantom and Fantom-0 workstations and all the added engines & functionality via OS updates, which include VA modelling based synthesis...something Yamaha does not have and likely needs in order to compete. My money is on them adding AN-X engine in 4.0 ... it just makes sense to me, as the appropriate response to Roland. Since the Montage and MODX were released, the two most asked for things have ,been an onboard sequencer and a VA engine. They got the sequence in 3.0, so my best guess is that they get a VA in 4.0

I realize this is all just speculative, but I really don't think that Yamaha rebranded the MODX to be the MODX+ and somehow magically squeezed out another 64 voices of polyphony for the FM-X engine off of a single SWP70 tone generator and maintained stability. I've read far too many posts by MODX owners who talk about how their notes are being cutoff and other polyphony type issues. But I have yet to read a single post about the MODX+ having this same issue yet it allows for even more polyphony..!?
The only thing that adds up is that the MODX+ has a second SWP70 and that can only mean they needed it in order to add the AN-X engine, as I don't think they would be able to without the extra tone generator...
Plus they need to make a big move and adding a 3rd VA engine is the exact move that I think they would need to make in response to Roland...

Yamaha has been releasing a lot of retrospective videos lately. Covering pretty much their entire line of past technologies. What's interesting about the latest VP1 video (you have to search youtube for it since the article itself is missing the link) is that they do not present modeling in the best light. Although Dom does speak to the flexibility and what he likes about the VP1 there is still messaging about how the instruments based on modeling were:

a) too expensive (required more custom ICs than other engines in order to achieve polyphony -- 16 notes at that for the VP1)

b) too confusing - there was an acknowledgment of the user not being able to harness the power due to either lack of editor or ability to change parameters but the model would respond differently than "conventional" synthesis.

c) ultimately a financial flop and something Yamaha ran far away from rather than revise and take a second swing at (other than limited modeling we see in various keyboards).

... so, I think Dom's presentation had a chance to gloss over the failures and only promote the advantages and sort of marketing "ham it up". If I were releasing a new engine based on the past keyboards like this -- I'd "promote" the technology more and wouldn't be so balanced. Now I don't know what this ultimately means with respect to this or next generations of the synthesizer flagships. I just usually look at these videos as providing clues.

The 50th year anniversary is coming up soon. I've got to think that there's some amount of investment into delivering products that capture the marketing that can be drummed up for this important milestone.

[quotePost id=119324]Yamaha has been releasing a lot of retrospective videos lately. Covering pretty much their entire line of past technologies. What's interesting about the latest VP1 video (you have to search youtube for it since the article itself is missing the link) is that they do not present modeling in the best light. Although Dom does speak to the flexibility and what he likes about the VP1 there is still messaging about how the instruments based on modeling were:[/quotePost]
That YT vid came up in my feed, but I haven't checked it out yet...I'll have to do that soon.

The 50th year anniversary is coming up soon. I've got to think that there's some amount of investment into delivering products that capture the marketing that can be drummed up for this important milestone.

Their 45th anniversary was in Sept 2019 around the time they released OS 3.0 & some new reface synths...
Will be interesting to see what the 50th will bring in 2024...

For MODX original users, I think they'll have to choose between FM-X parts or AN-X parts in a performance, if they're lucky.

And presuming that that AN-X does come to the Montage/MODX+ and... MODX

There's a lot of low hanging fruit in just modernising the FM-X engine, that could make it do even more than analogue modelling, and offering almost all of what's magical about analogue/subtractive synthesis.

But I think you're right, Darryl, there's gotta be another chip in the new one, and I suspect that's needed for more dynamic envelopes and newer synced LFOs, and better filters, and vastly better reverbs 😉