That has always baffled me. Why add a $500 FM/DX engine like on my CP1 that literally only plays (4) DX voices?

That's nuts! It's literally DX1, 2, 3 & 4 but they claim the authentic engine is present.

Or like on the YC that does a few very limited FM things?

MAYBE they'll release a comprehensive software controller but their track record says that's not going to happen with YC either.

Because it's a stage organ and Yamaha has grown way to fat and lazy over the years. Who knows whether the FM engine is even programmable inside YC?

Maybe only an OS update will add more programs but self-programming, although to complicated, is that even interfaceable?

They dumbed it down on the CP1 and that was a $6K piano.

I heard a few of the 30 year guys left Yamaha anyway. Not sure what those impacts will be on corporate decisions.

I had the Genos and they completely stopped supporting expansions packs and those were expensive.

I bought 90% of them before they stopped somewhere along the Tyros line.

My Fantom has hundreds more than Genos/Tyros dreamed of having and the supplemental packs were all free. 15 free packs!

Yamaha would have charged me $2K for that many packs. At one time I was dumb enough to pay for it. Not anymore.

I played around with the YC last night. What is does sounds great but it's all still very old technology

I don't care how old the technology is. What matters are things like sound quality, operational ergonomics, build quality, and whether it has the features you need. For some people that will be a YC61, for others it will be something else. It's all good.

Some of the priciest boards have some of the oldest technology (i.e. some of the true analog synths). The Fantom is full of old technology, and even literally old implementations of that technology... The XV-5080 sound set (Bank E) is 20 years old. The downloadable SRX-based wave expansions are almost as old. Even the V-Piano engine is over 10 years old. It doesn't mean it's not a great board, though.

Modeling and sampling have both been around for a long time, it doesn't mean these techniques can't be used to create new and/or better versions of sounds or that the boards cannot improve in ergonomics, value, or anything else. (Yamaha isn't new to modeling, btw, they did it in 1993 with the VL-1.) As you said, the YC sounds great (despite some flaws), and besides that, it is solidly built, has a nice feature set, is easy to operate, and has a decent action, in a very lightweight box that's easy to gig with. But that doesn't mean it's the right board for everyone.

The 50% rule typically applies to everything in production. Did it cost the $1,000 per unit? I really doubt it. I'd guess it costs them $700 per unit and list should be more like $1,400.

Your 50% premise is not at all universal. High volume products can be less. (Computers have notoriously low margins.) Low volume, boutique market products can require more. The figures I've seen are that musical gear typically sells for more like 4x-5x build cost, IIRC. So a $2000 keyboard probably costs $400-$500 in componentry. (Not counting things lke R&D, initial tooling/fabrication, distributor and retailer markup, support and other overhead.) But that's really besides the point. The question is whether you can find another board that will do what you want as well or better, for about the same price or less. And different people can honestly answer that differently.

That has always baffled me. Why add a $500 FM/DX engine like on my CP1 that literally only plays (4) DX voices?

That's nuts! It's literally DX1, 2, 3 & 4 but they claim the authentic engine is present.

I don't know how you would determine how much of the CP1's price was its FM engine. But CP1 had a bunch of tech specially designed to make it a top tier piano... and that's ALL it was. It only had a handful of sounds in it, all pianos of some type. Most of the included pianos were created with a combination of sampling and modeling, The 4 FM pianos used, well, FM, because it was a better way to get those sounds than sampling/modeling would have been. I think you're looking at it backwards. They didn't put FM into it and then decide to only use it for 4 sounds. Rather, they decided that their premier piano board should include the classic DX7 pianos, and the best no-compromise way to get them was to use FM. They didn't use the FM for anything else, because non-piano sounds were outside the scope of the board, just as they didn't use sampling (the AWM2) for anything other than piano sounds either. If you wanted more sounds, they had them in the cheaper CP5 (with the same great action)... the CP1 had a differen goal, for a different player. (And the CP5 used sampling for its DX7 piano sounds, instead of FM.)

Anyway, YC61, Fantom, CP1, Genos, are all great boards people can enjoy and make great music on. If a board isn't right for you, it simply makes sense that you should get something else, as you did. They're all right for someone, though.

I personally wouldn't compare pricing and features of a tow truck vs. a compact car because they are two different animals.

But if we're paying good money for old technology then you're proving my point. The Fantom is a real workstation, has Genos level free content galore, does sampling, it's a drum machine with pads, it plays all 16 voices no matter how complex, it smart morphs, it sequences, it's an organ & everything else, it's intuitive, has a touch screen, has endless I/Os including balanced w/XLRs, true one to one relationship, no computer interfacing required and lots more but it's just so easy to use. Fantom is a Mac Truck and Yamaha's way overpriced gear is a Tonka Truck. Sure we can buy them all if we have unlimited funds. I like the Fantom for a current product worth what is costs. Buying used is forever the way to go unless I get stupid and think a have to pre-order a board.

I'd say Fantom is more a luxury car. YC61 is more a motorcycle. Neither replaces the other, they're different experiences.

As I said, the Roland to compare the YC61 is the VR09B. The Fantom compares to the MODX/Montage. Personally, I think it's silly to compare YC61 to Fantom, for most purposes. They have entirely different goals.

And I wouldn't say "it's an organ" talking about the Fantom. It's not even as much of an organ as the MODX/Montage, and I wouldn't call those organs either (though at least they have Performances with 9-drawbar control, which AFAIK is still missing from the Fantom, though there's been talk about it coming since the day it shipped). That's not to say Fantom might not have organ sounds you like, but that's different from actually functioning as an organ, e.g. in its available sound options and controls.

Also, Fantom does not have "true one to one relationship" as you say... just in some areas. i.e. it has dedicated synth controls on the right, but the controls on the left are generic/assignable with multiple functions. There are, for example, none of the dedicated effects, EQ, speaker/amp emulation, or section volume controls that the YC has. (Nor, of course, the dedicated drawbar/percussion/etc. organ controls since, as I said, it isn't really an organ.)

I'm selling my YC at the moment but are we betting that a major OS update will not come until winter NAMM or next summer even? I'd like to see what they propose as improvements but I'm not setting my expectations very high since it's only a stage board. It's got to be directly in line with the CP series updates as far as expectations. How impressive were those updates?

I'd definitely get the YC used if you must have a dedicated organ. I haven't seen any fantastically low resale prices but I've not been looking either. I think I had an offer for $1,200 which is probably what the YC should be but I don't want to take that much of a loss on it just yet.

It's a cool and fun gadget that you can carry under your arm but you must seriously want an organ to pay what they are asking for it.

I pre-ordered mine because it was the first ever Yamaha organ, plus I never cared for the competition's organs. The curiosity got the best of me on the YC that's for certain.

I often think have much they will improve it depends on sales or lack thereof. They might cut their losses and do very little to improve it or decide to up an ante. Whatever the market research tells them to do I suppose. Risk vs return. We shall see.

I'm selling my YC at the moment but are we betting that a major OS update will not come until winter NAMM or next summer even?

Yes, I feel pretty confident we'll see the update within that time frame, based on https://www.yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/is-this-a-true-yc61-statement - It's been about 6 mos so far... I'd guess we'll see an announcement by winter NAMM. Especially since I've seen rumor of other imminent additions to the YC line, so it could make sense to announce at the same time.

That could only mean a 76 key version with the tip-off is in the title "YC61" as opposed to "YC76" or a (2) tier 61 key manual version. Being that Yamaha always charges $33.33 dollars per additional key that will be a $500 upcharge. Roland was only charging $20 per extra key on the Fantom.

My theory is that most folks want the 76 keys so they intend to have a larger profit margin on the 76 version. It really doesn't cost them anywhere near $33.33 a key. It's a money grab which is why I don't care much for Yamaha anymore. I'd estimate it cost them $10 a key for both companies. Roland is making 50% profit and Yamaha is making 70% profit.

Just my theory and speculation being the the 61 & 76 are otherwise identical. Yamaha loves nickel and diming at every corner and not that doing that translates into better service or a better product or better & faster updates because they are slow, slow, slow or just indifferent.

Being that Yamaha always charges $33.33 dollars per additional key that will be a $500 upcharge. Roland was only charging $20 per extra key on the Fantom.

MODX6 vs. MODX7, $1400 vs. $1600 for a $200 difference for the 15 extra keys, that's $13.33 a key. So no, they don't always charge $33.33 per additional key.

How is charging for a more complex and complex keybed a money grab? The heavier keybed also calls for more reinforcing and generally the 88-note weighted variants have more mechanical reinforcement and even different bottom-side material in order to support the weight. The Montage-8 vs. 7/6 also has different PCBs - you need a different service manual for the -8 vs -7 or -6. So there's more cost in having one sku different vs sharing so much between 2. It's not only a key yet - there are other items that come along the ride with those extra keys. And the keys themselves are different and more costly to manufacture and source parts.

Not only that - but each company has R&D costs that go into realizing these keybeds. Each is a unique experience and different feel. If you like either better or both equally - then there's value in paying for the one(s) you like. That's got to be worth something - "feel". It's a big part of the relationship one has with the instrument. What I'm getting here is that there's a lot more that goes into "cost to make" vs. raw material costs. And even still, perhaps not all of the material costs have been considered. There's not much of a reason to list all of the other things that are part of the manufacturing process or post-sales costs that add to this list. I think it's enough to say that this part of the keyboard (for both companies) carries a lot of cost burden for the manufacturer.

All of that aside - where are your numbers coming from? I look at a major retailer's current sales (street) price of Roland Fantom and see:

Fantom-8 @ $3999.99 (lets add a penny and call it $4000) with 88 keys
Fantom-7 @ $3599.99 (lets add a penny and call it $3600) with 76 keys

The delta in cost is $400 (penny or no penny).

The delta in number of keys is 12 keys.

$400/12 keys = $33.33 per key.

If that's what you calculated for Yamaha's pricing "per key" - then that seems like parity.

BTW: I recently played on the MODX-8 this weekend. A much better experience than I've had playing the previous MO series 88 key variant (like MOXF8). I don't remember my first impression of the MODX8 being so great - so possibly the keybed settles in to a nice response as the keyboard has likely been on the floor for some number of months now. I really have no reservations now recommending MODX8 as a solid 88-key platform. It's the "lite" version of Montage but really performs very high on a lot of fronts. Limitations in the spec that arrive at the cost savings seem more than fair.

At the root of this thread seems like someone with buyer's remorse for purchasing a keyboard that was never designed to fit the individual's needs. A "niche" keyboard with an organ focus was never going to be a workstation or arranger. However, it turns out that either a flagship workstation or flagship arranger are more in fitting with what was wanted/needed. Bashing a screwdriver for not being a saw doesn't really diminish how good the screwdriver is nor does it really help further your own goals. Buy a saw, sell the screwdriver (at a loss - that's what happens with gear when it exits out the showroom door) and have fun. I think you have your saw. I'm happy it's cutting as you like and not screwing like you'd apparently not ever like. Objectively listening to your complaints, I don't really connect the frustration so much with a firmware release schedule as I see your frustration with the feature set. Something that hopefully you will better establish for your next major keyboard purchase.

Also - I do happen to have a Fantom-8. I haven't unboxed it yet. I'm getting my studio cleaned up which is no small task. I'll have it replacing my RD-2000 hopefully by the end of the month. Can't wait to learn if I have one that freezes or not. Fingers crossed.

The 8s are a different animal all together. Was comparing the flagships 6 vs 7s only. Fantom vs Montage and Sweetwater list prices.

There are always variations in pricing. I don't buy dumbed down versions of flagships so I have zero idea about those like the MO, etc.

I know I didn't clarify. If you have a Fantom 8 you will be in another world.

I just registered my F6 and they granted me access to 46 Zen-Core expansions packs for free.

I already had 15 packs free with hundreds of content voices many on the Genos quality level.

Yamaha would have charged us thousands of dollars for that much additional content.

I know. I bought every Tyros and Genos & flagship synth expansion pack they offered for many years. It was into the thousands.

Ultimate point is Roland is doing it right with extreme quality and making Yamaha look greedy IMO. My perspective goes back to the DX100 in my teens.

Still quality products but the times are a changin.

I've owned a few Yamaha's as follows:
DX100
DX7 series
Several EX5 boards (repaired several)
CP1
AN1x (Repaired several)
Genos (almost all expansions going back to Tyros)
Montage 6 & 8
Several FS1rs
Several Motifs
Many EX5r units (Repaired some)
Many Tyros series boards
YC61
SY77 & 99 (repaired many of these)
CS1x
RM1x (repaired many)
RS7000 (repaired hundreds it seems)
SU700 (repaired many)
A3000 (repaired tons of these)
A7000 (repaired many of these)

Seems like I'm missing s few but you get the idea.

I understand the expansion story - but I've been through a fair amount of "browsing" on the Fantom and - I believe I've mentioned this before - don't really like the character of most sounds on the Roland side. Maybe some of the expansion packs would (for me) be a welcome addition so the effective set of installed material is as useful to me as the Montage's set. Maybe I need to spend time now I have one at the house to undo all of the gloss I don't dig in the Roland sound by tweaking effects or other settings.

What I'm getting at is perhaps the free stuff isn't philanthropy but more of a realization that the factory set isn't enough. This is an area of personal taste - so there's not really one right answer. If you love the factory stuff - then more of the same (or more of the different) would be like it's raining greatness. A different perspective if the factory presets are not your cup of tea.

Still, I just think you bought the wrong board in the YC61 for what you were after. And not that it's a flaw of the YC61. Yes, the character of the rotating speaker gains fair criticism - but it's hardly, overall, a flawed device. I think someone with so much Yamaha gear knows what they're getting into when it comes to the Leslie "modeling".

Oh, I like the YC but only for $1,400 perhaps. I should have waited 2 years and bought a used or refurb'd version like my Fantom.

I jumped the gun but it's really a fun and nifty gadget but super expensive for what you get. Unless they can something how double the content including organs etc.

By all means get one but wait and get one for much less money. I only jumped the gun with a pre-order because Yamaha has never made an organ that I know of.

Curiosity killed the cat which happened to be me. Typically they don't nail it on the first try so I knew it was risky.

Still it's cool but just not worth the price for a single new item (the organ) and the rest is Yamaha's same ole samples taken from elsewhere plus a touch of FM both in a very limited quantity.

I think they assume a stage board or piano/organ should only have a very limited number of selections.

I'd think the opposite that if that's all the board does, plays sounds, that it should have tons of voices.

Their philosophy is backwards IMO but perhaps piano and organ players only want 20 or 30 or 60 voices and that's it.

However if that's all that are present then the price should be way less but somehow with fewer voices the price per voice goes way up.

I suppose I judge not only on ease of use but how massive the content. Get a YC but I'll bet many are waiting to get it for around $1,400. I had an offer for $1,200 once.

Oh, I like the YC but only for $1,400 perhaps. I should have waited 2 years and bought a used or refurb'd version like my Fantom.

Now I understand your earlier response about the Fantom not being much pricier than the YC. Which means again, even besides the basic functionalities we've discussed, there's a huge difference in the market simply based on the Fantom being "over twice the weight and over a grand pricier." It's silly to compare what two companies give you for the money when you pick a new product from one and a used/refurbed from the other. (Even apart from the fact that the boards have completely different design goals.)

super expensive for what you get. Unless they can something how double the content including organs etc.

There are, technically, millions of organ sounds in the YC, though you can only save up to 160 (max Live Set locations). An actual B3 similarly has millions of sounds, but you can only save 20 (through changing the factory ones did require a tedious process of moving nine wires to different terminals). But most B3 players rarely even used the 20 presets. The key is the live controls (e.g. drawbars). A board only needs zillions of organ presets if it is a crappy organ. 😉 If you want more organ presets, just make them! If you're trying to duplicate some famous sounds, here are a bunch of settings:

http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/PopularDrawbarRegistrations

a good excel file: https://www.norduserforum.com/download/file.php?id=3578 but you may have to register at the forum to access it

When you find a setting you like, just save it to a Live Set, you can have as many of these organ "presets" as you want, as long as you have available Live Set slots.

A major point here is that ALL of the organ sounds (registrations) described in those links are indeed available in the YC61. You can't say that about the Fantom. If you don't get this, you're missing the point of what a (Hammond-style) organ player actually looks for in a keyboard... the YC is an organ, the Fantom isn't. Having a bunch of organ sounds is not what makes something an organ, any more than having a bunch of violin sounds makes something a violin. The "3 organ sounds" you said the YC has aren't organ sounds, they are organ models, each of which is, in turn, capable of countless sounds, the same full variety of sounds the actual original organs they were based on had.

I think they assume a stage board or piano/organ should only have a very limited number of selections.

I'd think the opposite that if that's all the board does, plays sounds, that it should have tons of voices.

Their philosophy is backwards IMO but perhaps piano and organ players only want 20 or 30 or 60 voices and that's it.

However if that's all that are present then the price should be way less but somehow with fewer voices the price per voice goes way up.

I suppose I judge not only on ease of use but how massive the content.

You are missing the point of the YC. It is about immediacy of operation with dedicated controls, and organ emulation. Other boards may be about tons of sounds, or maximum flexibility.

With direct-control boards that don't use lots of menus or screen navigation, it can become impractical to have too many sounds because it becomes too hard to get to them. I'm not saying the YC couldn't have more than it has, but I wouldn't expect or want it to have even half as many built-in sounds as a Fantom. Who would want to navigate through a thousand sounds by endlessly scrolling through the Synth or Others category? Direct control boards aren't geared toward anything like a Fantom-sized sound library. Similarly, look at Hammond SK1, Dexibell J7, Vox Continental, Korg SV1/SV2/Grandstage, or any Nord. (Or Yamaha's CP73/CP88, of course.)

That doesn't necessarily mean you're not getting value for your money, you're just getting something different. From a cost of materials perspective, more controls can have more impact on the price of a board than the number of sounds it has. From an operational perspective, depending on your preferences, you may be getting a board that works in a way you find more enjoyable.

There's also a difference between quantity and quality, so "massive content" isn't for everyone. I'd rather have 5 really good EP sounds than 100 EP sounds that aren't as good as those 5. Even if you don't care about having an organ but would be content to just have a nice bunch of organ sounds, as far as I've heard, the Fantom organ sounds simply don't sound as good as the YC's. So what does it matter how many organ presets there are, if none of them are of comparable quality, even apart from what is in fact the much smaller variety of organ sounds that you can actually generate in a Fantom compared to a YC.

For the right organ sound and functionality, people will pay $1000 or more for boards that have nothing else. Single-manual options include Crumar Mojo 61, Viscount Legend Solo, Hammond XK-1C, Numa Organ. Getting organ right, by itself, is part of the expense and value, it's its own technology, a technology that arguably exists in the YC (at least if you feel its organ sound is competitive with those), and not in the Fantom (whose organ sound and functionality is not competitive with those). I mean, if the $2000 YC has the equivalent of, say, a $1000 organ in it, and the Fantom does not, that could give you an additional perspective on the relative values of the boards. If you don't care about that level of organ sound/functionality, then the YC may not be a good value, and it also probably isn't the kind of board you should be looking at in the first place, you're not the customer for that board, you'd be paying a lot for something you don't care about. (I will admit, though, that the case for the YC61 including the equivalent of a $1000 organ would be stronger if they provided a better Leslie emulation!)

In the end, it sounds like you think the YC is a good board, just not worth its price... but that depends on what sounds/features/operational ergonomics you value. Compare it to other lightweight multi-sound boards with dedicated organ functions and easy real-time manipulation of splits/layers and effects, and your evaluation might change. The issue then might not be so much that it's over-priced, but rather, that that isn't a description of the kind of board you're really looking for.

I only jumped the gun with a pre-order because Yamaha has never made an organ that I know of.

Yamaha's origin story involves an organ ...

Source: 1st line in https://www.yamaha.com/en/about/history/

Yamaha's history began when its founder, Torakusu Yamaha, repaired a broken reed organ in 1887. Shortly thereafter, he successfully completed the first reed organ to be built in Japan.

In 1921, Yamaha acquired Nishikawa & Sons and continued to produce Nishikawa organs until 1936

In 1932, Yamaha began building pipe organs

In 1935, Yamaha's first electric organ debuted in 1935 (with tone cabinet)

Then in 1959, you see a return to organs after other ventures.
https://www.yamaha.com/en/about/innovation/collection/detail/2000/
... this organ seems to borrow the cabinet and pedal configuration from the look of the Hammond (M) Spinet (first introduced in 1948)

Electone E-1 in 1962,
Electone B-3 and C-1 in 1964,
Electone B-5 in 1965,
Electone C-2 and E-2 in 1966,
Electone C-2B in 1967, ... you get the point, lots of organ models through the 60s and 70s

... just moving along: in 1980 the D85 Electone was introduced which was regarded as a top organ of the time.

And it keeps going and going with new models released every year or so.

Even recently there was a Reface YC released around 2015 - minus the keys it looks a lot like the 70s YC-20 or kind of like an A-3, a Yamaha combo organ introduced in 1966.

... so there's certainly a lot of Yamaha organ focused models out there. Too many to list.