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Editing a preset drum ARP - possible?

42 Posts
7 Users
Posts: 773
Prominent Member

My Montage keys only go down to C1 (unless I change via the octive button)

Use the button and go down one octave and your C1 will now be C0.

Remember to set the transpose back to normal when you are done testing.

The tone generator can respond to ALL of the valid MIDI note values - even those you don't have keys for.

Posted : 21/01/2023 9:05 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter

Got it!...volume now adjusted

Posted : 21/01/2023 9:41 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304

Andrew wrote:

Why does changing the velocity setting here affect the volume when the velocity isn't being changed at all? I can't find the curve that might be being usedd.

Andrew is confusing Tone Generator (Key) settings with Arpeggio settings (which includes the velocity of the Note data within the Arpeggio Phrase). The velocity of the Arp Phrase is being OFFSET by percentage...

The KEY settings refer to the MODX Tone Generator itself (the synth). If and when you go to Arpeggio settings and offset the Velocity setting you are offsetting (by %) the amount of Velocity with which the Arp Phrase plays back. Arp Phrases can playback at the "Original" velocity with which they were recorded (Velocity Mode = Original), or you can set them to playback at the velocity of the note you use to trigger them, "Velocity Mode = Thru).

Key settings would include both the Drum Key "Level" and "Level/Vel"
An Arpeggio setting would include the so-called Arp Play FX which offset the Velocity and Gate Time (duration)... and are among the parameters found on the Part's Arpeggio screens (Common, Individual, Advanced).

Drum Keys are often set to ignore Note Off (Rcv Note Off = Off) so "Gate Time" does not apply in most kits unless you edit the KEY, specifically to Receive Note Off.

Hmmm - for me it is key A0 - and adjusting it's level changes the volume

I'm using the Pop Rock Drum Arpeggio "MA_8Beat Medium" as indicated by Colin in his post. So for me it is "C1" as the Kick Drum.

Posted : 21/01/2023 9:42 pm
Posts: 773
Prominent Member

I'm using the Pop Rock Drum Arpeggio "MA_8Beat Medium" as indicated by Colin in his post. So for me it is "C1" as the Kick Drum.


That is what I am using on a MODX - #6479 - MA-8Beat Medium.

1. Open the 'New Oak Custom Kit'
2. Edit part 1
3. Go to the 'Arpeggion Individual' screen
4. Select ARP #6 and replace it with #6479 - your arp

And the little green light is on for A0 and if I drop the level the drum disappears. There must be a difference between the waveforms on Montage and Modx. Or a different drum kit?

OP has a Montage so as long as it matches them it doesn't matter what my Modx has - I just wanted to make sure we had the right waveform - your solution applies regardless.

Posted : 21/01/2023 10:02 pm
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member

For "Real Drums Kit" Preset, MA_8Beat Medium only uses two drum keys. C1 for bass drum and F#1 for high hat (close).

"Real Drums Kit" sets the Arpeggio->Advanced menu "Fixed SD/BD" to ON. This has an impact on the MIDI notes. If I turn "Fixed SD/BD" OFF, then hex 24 (C1 MIDI note) becomes 21 (A0 MIDI note).

The full sequence (without loop and note-off events removed) is:

[code type=markup]
Time Note # V. MIDI Note
51920857 24 44 C 1
51920857 2A 44 F# 1
51921119 2A 22 F# 1
51921378 2A 55 F# 1
51921642 24 33 C 1
51921643 2A 22 F# 1
51921902 24 44 C 1
51921902 2A 44 F# 1
51922161 2A 22 F# 1
51922425 2A 55 F# 1
51922683 2A 22 F# 1
51922947 24 44 C 1
51922947 2A 44 F# 1
51923207 2A 22 F# 1
51923466 2A 55 F# 1
51923729 24 33 C 1
51923730 2A 22 F# 1
51923988 24 44 C 1
51923988 2A 44 F# 1
51924247 2A 22 F# 1
51924511 2A 55 F# 1
51924771 2A 22 F# 1
51925035 24 44 C 1
51925035 2A 44 F# 1
51925293 2A 22 F# 1
51925552 2A 55 F# 1
51925815 24 33 C 1
51925815 2A 22 F# 1
51926073 24 44 C 1
51926073 2A 44 F# 1
51926337 2A 22 F# 1
51926596 2A 55 F# 1
51926861 2A 22 F# 1
51927119 24 44 C 1
51927119 2A 44 F# 1
51927382 2A 22 F# 1
51927639 2A 55 F# 1
51927903 24 33 C 1
51927903 2A 22 F# 1
51928163 24 44 C 1
51928163 2A 44 F# 1
51928421 2A 22 F# 1
51928684 2A 55 F# 1
51928948 2A 22 F# 1

Posted : 22/01/2023 12:45 am
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member

Additional Note: Time starts wherever the timestamp begins on my computer - so differences between each line in terms of time (time deltas) are more meaningful than the absolute time value. I didn't calculate out the deltas - but you can easily see notes hit at the same time due to the same timestamp and do the math if you really were curious about note lengths.

Used arpeggio output (Arp MIDI Out = ON, Arpeggio Loop = OFF, Arpeggio Hold = ON, struck a key) method and MacOS "Pocket MIDI" to capture. Under Windows I would have used MIDI-OX. The suggestion previously was to use Cubase or some other piano roll note output since it's easier than putting values into a spreadsheet and calculating MIDI note numbers.

Differences in C1 (the standard "BD" labeled bass drum) and A0 is due to the "Fixed SD/BD" setting - not due to different waveforms. You can toggle this setting on any drum kit and there's a possibility (if the kick arpeggio isn't using C1 inside the ARP) that this setting (when fixed=ON) will alter the ARP's note number for bass drum to C1. There is the same idea for the snare.

Posted : 22/01/2023 12:51 am
Posts: 773
Prominent Member

"Real Drums Kit" sets the Arpeggio->Advanced menu "Fixed SD/BD" to ON. This has an impact on the MIDI notes. If I turn "Fixed SD/BD" OFF, then hex 24 (C1 MIDI note) becomes 21 (A0 MIDI note).

Thanks - that did the trick!

The Real Oak Custom Kit I was using has the "Fixed SD/BD" switch OFF so it used A0.

Found a couple of threads that OP may want to read from Bad Mister that discuss being able to use the Faders to control the volume like OP wants to do.

You may notice that certain Arp phrases do not use the prinicipal Drum Key assignments. In this example, the phrase does not use the Snare (SD) controlled by the FADER (D1). You can either use the ELEMENT EXCHANGE function to swap KEY assignments, placing the SD you want on D1, or, you can try the FIXED SD/BD function - which substitutes C1 and D1 for Kick and Snare:*

Go to [EDIT] > [PART SELECT 1] > Lower [COMMON] > "Arpeggio" > "Advanced"
Activate the "Fixed SD/BD":
. . .
This will allow you to use the BD/SD and HH levels. Adjust the balance of Bass Drum, Snare Drum and HHC/HHP/HHO that works for your taste. You can choose to use any KICK and SNARE you prefer... remember once you identify which NOTE number is playing a particular sound you can swap it with the principal KYES: C1 and D1, then using this "FIXED SD/BD" function you will have control over those drums via the Faders.

Posted it since this is likely of interest to OP - don't understand it myself yet.

Posted : 22/01/2023 1:39 am
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member

BTW: adjusting the level of the bass drum was mentioned before. But if you want an alternative way to get to the same place, you can use this "Fixed SD/BD" so you can use the sliders (aka faders) to control the levels.

Without "Fixed SD/BD" for this ARP - the bass drum will be A0. A0 is not a note that can be adjusted using the sliders. However, when you turn on "Fixed SD/BD" - A0 will now be forced to C1, which is the "standard" BD. The standard BD (MIDI Note C1) can be level controlled using the slider.

So ...

You could turn "Fixed SD/BD" on and then use the sliders to adjust the bass drum level.

Slider 1 = BD (Bass Drum) level -- must be MIDI note C1 (or another note that is Fixed SD/BD=ON adjusted)
Slider 2 = SD (Snare Drum) level -- must be MIDI note D1 (or another note that is Fixed SD/BD=ON adjusted)
... for reference:
Slider 3 = HHC (High Hat Closed) level -- must be MIDI note F#1
Slider 4 = HHP (High Hat Pedal) level -- must be MIDI note G#1
Slider 5 = HHO (High Hat Open) level -- must be MIDI note A#1
Slider 6 = LT (Low Tom) level -- must be MIDI note A1
Slider 7 = HT (High Tom) level -- must be MIDI note D2
Slider 8 = CC (Crash Cymbal) level -- must be MIDI note C#2

Posted : 22/01/2023 2:55 am
Posts: 773
Prominent Member

Without "Fixed SD/BD" for this ARP - the bass drum will be A0

That is the part I'm not getting.

Why is A0 considered 'the bass drum'? The display shows A0 as being
'4490 Bd Oak Open 1-2 St' as does the data list doc. Presumably the 'Bd'
is an abbreviation for 'bass drum'.

Is there something internally that identifies that waveform as a 'bass drum'?
How would you designate your own waveform as 'bass drum' so as to cause
the same substitution if you turned on 'Fixed SD/BD'?

There must be some indicator for the 8 designated drums mapped to C1+. It seems
there might be several keys with the same waveform mapped to them. Would they
all be remapped to C1?

Posted : 22/01/2023 3:14 am
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member

Honestly, I don't know the exact mechanism for the keyboard to determine something off-C1 is a bass drum or something off-D1 is a snare drum.

I tried assigning A0 to a snare drum to see if the "Fixed SD/BD" would pull A0 into a snare drum MIDI value (D1). It didn't do this - it remained as a bass drum.

Therefore, I wonder if maybe there's a standard list of alternate MIDI notes that are also recognized as bass drums (by presumption of the keyboard). A hard-coded list of alternates if you will. This can be tested by creating user drum ARPs (fixed note) that play through 16 notes starting with C0-D#1 then another ARP playing through E1-G2 (the next 16 notes). Note: you can skip all of the standard MIDI values I listed for each slider -- that'd create a slightly different list of notes to try. And the deal here would be to see which notes are remapped to C1 or D1 when playing your custom ARP. This could start to hint towards which notes are hardcoded to BD or SD.

Or, I wondered if the arpeggio has something to specially label which notes are BD and which are SD. There are lots of bytes in the arpeggio data I haven't been able to figure out. For this the discovery process would be to run through the preset drum arps and see if you can get any replacement notes (for BD or SD) that do not agree with the previous investigation. This would start to indicate that these are not fixed but specified likely in the ARP itself.

Also -- related to if the ARP itself sets this - creating a user ARP you would not have a way to set this. I think one could just create a drum arp with A0 and F#1 (or any other notes) and then see if "Fixed SD/BD" changes A0 to C1 like it does for the preset ARP we're dealing with in this thread. It's not conclusive -- but at least you could know that user ARPs act the same as this preset arpeggio.

Of course, Yamaha could short-circuit this and show the cards of how this is done. It's not typically done - but there have been surprises.

For using the built-in content - knowing exactly how it works isn't necessary. Just hit the "Fixed SD/BD" button and see if any notes change to C1 or D1. I personally would prefer to know all of the ins and outs. However, I also don't think I would gain much by learning the exact mechanism. That's just my personal view for my own usage. Someone else may validly have rationale for having to know this.

Posted : 22/01/2023 4:18 am
Posts: 773
Prominent Member

Therefore, I wonder if maybe there's a standard list of alternate MIDI notes that are also recognized as bass drums (by presumption of the keyboard).

I'm wondering if Yamaha is using stuff from the XG (extended general midi) spec that they worked on years ago

At the bottom of is a link to an archived doc -

On page 40 is a Drum Map and it lists A0 as 'Bass Drum L' and C1 as 'Bass Drum H'.
Also B1 as 'Bass Drum M'.

Posted : 22/01/2023 5:06 am
Posts: 0
New Member

The best thing they could do is enhance the sequencer/arpeggiator to include a darn piano roll/drum editor. Roland Fantom/FA has many bad sides on the sound front, but the UI just kills the Montage/MODX. Same with that new Akai MPC Keys. Because of the sound engine, Yamaha could keep these synths relevant well into the future with an addition like that.

Right now the sequencer/arpeggiator is sufficiently powerful and has an absurd amount of arpeggios, but it's like flying blind and I don't get the value out of it I think I should - its just too much when all I want to do is put in a quick backing pattern.

Posted : 26/01/2023 3:06 am
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