[quotePost id=118112]But the Roland's definitely seem to be a bit more Producer orientated (or at least marketed that way) than the Montage, and even that much more than the MODX(+).[/quotePost]
Interestingly enough, when you look closer, the Montage/MODX proves to be a much better producer machine, or at least this is how it looks to me.

First, if you are at the computer anyway, you won't do your sampling on the keyboard.

Then, there's the great FX architecture of the Montage: more inserts and sidechain. Those are really important in this scenario, and Fantom-0 doesn't have them.

And third, Montage Connect. This is such a great workflow enabler for working with the computer and for taking the work started on the board and developing it in the DAW.

[quotePost id=118113]
Interestingly enough, when you look closer, the Montage/MODX proves to be a much better producer machine, or at least this is how it looks to me.

First, if you are at the computer anyway, you won't do your sampling on the keyboard.[/quotePost]
I agree. With a DAW the Montage is super powerful [and MODX(+) too]
Yeah, I'd never do sampling on the keyboard itself. For me it's mostly the DAW, with some wave file editing via a free software based tool on the computer. And SampleRobot Montage Edition of course.

Then, there's the great FX architecture of the Montage: more inserts and sidechain. Those are really important in this scenario, and Fantom-0 doesn't have them.

And third, Montage Connect. This is such a great workflow enabler for working with the computer and for taking the work started on the board and developing it in the DAW.

Wow, didn't know that about the Fantom-0 FX architecture.
I haven't used Montage Connect a whole lot, but I love that you can save a single Performance and send it to someone, or receive a Performance file and load it into the Montage. Super awesome. I bought a few custom Performances from Michael Tan and he sent them in the Montage Connect format! 😉

[quotePost id=118114]Wow, didn't know that about the Fantom-0 FX architecture.[/quotePost]
Only one insert, no sidechain.
No sidechain is true about the big Fantom as well, not familiar with the number of effects on that one.

People don't realise how powerful the MODX really is. And now with the MODX+ you'll basically have the full power of the flagship in the mid-tier. With full patch compatibility. This is simply not true for the Fantom/Fantom-0 ecosystem.

[quotePost id=118114]I haven't used Montage Connect a whole lot, but I love that you can save a single Performance and send it to someone, or receive a Performance file and load it into the Montage. Super awesome. I bought a few custom Performances from Michael Tan and he sent them in the Montage Connect format! 😉
[/quotePost]
I love the ability to save the patch in the DAW project and to drag n drop the MIDI patterns from the MODX into the DAW. Gamechangers, both those features, lets you treat the synth more like a VST inside the DAW.

And there's also the availability of John Melas tools. Nothing similar on the Fantom.

[quotePost id=118111][quotePost id=118107]Regarding opening up a MODX+ to see what's inside:
It'd likely be preferable to pay the $17 for a service manual once available to get the parts list rather than tearing into a new device. Paul @ SSS will likely do this for you with a writeup.[/quotePost]

Yeah, that makes sense to just wait for Paul writeup! How long do you think before we see a write-up on the MODX+ from Paul?[/quotePost]

Well, to be honest, that could be a while. 😮 Yamaha have gotten rather restrictive about service manuals (again). Occasionally, a manual comes in through the transom. 😉

Plus, I'm most interested in products where Yamaha breaks new ground. Since ya guys have been reading my site, I regard the MODX+ as a spin of an existing product -- not so interesting technically.

I don't have a formal relationship with Yamaha, but do have a good personal relationship with some of their folks. I want to keep it that way -- no NDA, good friends.

I'll be happy to take one apart if you bring it to my house. 😀 Meanwhile, I'm tearing apart and hacking Akai MPK Midi Play. My MODX is too dear and useful to be solder-fodder.

Peace -- pj

P.S. If someone wants to tell me what's actually inside SWP70, that's a rule-changer.

[quotePost id=118105]One of the recurring discussions on forums over the past year or so is regarding some who argue that the Fantom/Fantom-0 has a greater ability for more sounds (layers/splits), since it basically has the equivalent of 16 useable PARTs as opposed to the Montage/MODX's 8 PARTs under KBD CTRL. [/quotePost]Fantom-0 only has 16 usable Parts if you turn off the seamless switching. Once you enable seamless switching, it drops to 8 keyboard playable parts, same as MODX, except worse, because on the MODX, parts 9-16 are still useful for things like sequences, drum parts, or triggering sounds from an external controller, whereas on the Roland, parts 9-16 cannot be used for anything at all if you have the seamless switching feature enabled. (Though Roland's seamless switching does work for 8 parts rather than 4).

[quotePost id=118108]I see it something like this:
Multiple synth engines? Yes, both have those; Sequencing? Yeah, but with differences; Audio interfaces? yes; Sampling? Well, only one of those has it.[/quotePost]There are a lot of other notable differences, but I understand you're trying to differentiate "what you see at a distance" from "what you see up close," and I agree with your point that you'd come at that picture differently as a gigging performer than as a studio producer. But even the things you mention have important distinctions... in a way, it's not just the first two where you can say "both have them, with differences," rather that applies all of them. Roland's audio interface works with PC/Mac, but not iPad. Maybe you can't sample directly into the MODX, but you can certainly work with your own samples, and arguably, the actual sampling is more effectively done on your computer anyway. But getting back to that other point...

[quotePost id=118108]For a "producer" (hip hop, EDM and so on), sampling might be very important while whatever piano or organ engine, might not.[/quotePost]I think this kind of differentiation is something being missed by the VA synth advocates who say MODX can't compete with Fantom-0 unless it has that. You can flip it around... MODX has much better pianos than Fantom-0, how can Fantom-0 compete with MODX, lagging like that in piano? Probably most gigging players need piano more than they need VA synth. And it's not like MODX can't do any synth stuff... its sample-based approach can still cover an awful lot of synth territory, especially for gigging players, and its FM synth gives it synth capabilities that in their own way exceed anything you can do on the Fantom-0. As a gigging player, I can manage with the synth capabilities of the MODX more than I can be content with the piano capabilities of the Fantom-0.

As I see it, sonically, MODX beats Fantom-0 on most sampled/acoustic instruments (including pianos) and FM synth. Fantom-0 beats MODX on organ, VA synth, and some sampled/acoustic instruments. Neither is best at everything, and different players will have different sonic priorities.

I did pick up a Fantom-0 as well. Its big draws for me were its rhythm pattern features and nicer interface. Secondarily, the organ, and some features that appeal to me but I haven't used yet: assignable outs, and some nicer facilities for working with samples. (I don't care about having the sampling in the board, but some of the other sampling aspects of the board do look appealing). But the MODX still usually sounds better for my purposes (certainly out of the box, without tweaking... which is why it's a good thing that the Roland makes things easier to tweak... it needs more tweaking!). MODX is also better for integrating additional sounds over MIDI. (So again, it's easier for a MODX user to substitute a better VA synth sound from an iPad, than it is for a Fantom-0 user to substitute a better piano sound from an iPad.)

But again, people have different needs.

[quotePost id=118112]Yamaha still deem them as Synths instead of Workstations, despite adding a Sequencer to them in 2019 (but neither do sampling, so the Synth category still makes sense).[/quotePost]There are plenty of workstations that don't sample. The one feature which consistently seems to define "workstation" is the presence of a multitrack editable linear sequencer. All Motifs had that, Montage/MODX still do not. Old Roland Fantoms did, as did the FA, but the current Fantom/Fantom-0 do not, and Roland makes the same distinction, calling the former workstations and the latter synths.

[quotePost id=118112]I'm not sure but do the Roland's even have something like "Live Set"?[/quotePost]Yes, Scenes. Which are very much like Yamaha's Live Set, and nothing like Yamaha's Scenes. Roland's closest equivalent to that is Keyboard Switch Groups. 🙂

[quotePost id=118115]People don't realise how powerful the MODX really is. And now with the MODX+ you'll basically have the full power of the flagship in the mid-tier. With full patch compatibility. This is simply not true for the Fantom/Fantom-0 ecosystem.[/quotePost]

Yeah, that would be my concern ... that some people might end up with the perception that the Fantom-0 has more engines & more variety of sounds of equal quality, plus the ability to play 16 usable Parts at the same time, etc., and never know how powerful the MODX really is.

IMO Yamaha should be aware of (maybe even somewhat concerned with) the perception of new customers who may not do their homework and research fully... If Roland's marketing team did their job, they could potentially sway a lot of customers toward the Fantom-0 over the MODX+

That's why I believe a VA engine on the MODX+ and Montage would be a sales game changer, as Yamaha's marketing team could really emphasize the 3rd engine in addition to everything else, and knowing Yamaha it would be a top quality engine... Reviews would likely come in quite favorably!

Good thing I don't have stock in the Yamaha synth division, or else I might actually be concerned :p

[quotePost id=118116]I'll be happy to take one apart if you bring it to my house. 😀 Meanwhile, I'm tearing apart and hacking Akai MPK Midi Play. My MODX is too dear and useful to be solder-fodder.

Peace -- pj

P.S. If someone wants to tell me what's actually inside SWP70, that's a rule-changer.[/quotePost]
Thanks for the update Paul!
I imagine the technical people who service/fix the new MODX+ are under some kind of NDA and not allowed to take pics either, eh!?

When looking at MODX+ vs Montage in terms of synth engines you now get parity with the polyphony bump. Fantom-0 vs Fantom you lose the modeled piano so it's relatively more crippled vs. the flagship than Yamaha's competitive synths.

I do have the Fantom (flagship) and I do like the modeled pianos where others don't agree. This is from having an RD2000. Unfortunately the Fantom-0 dropped that which would otherwise make a somewhat competitive (IMO) piano story.

Therefore, for this at-a-distance column in the Pro/Con list - Fantom/Fantom0 get the "con" and Montage/MODX+ get the "pro".

[quotePost id=118118]Fantom-0 only has 16 usable Parts if you turn off the seamless switching. Once you enable seamless switching, it drops to 8 keyboard playable parts, same as MODX, except worse, because on the MODX, parts 9-16 are still useful for things like sequences, drum parts, or triggering sounds from an external controller, whereas on the Roland, parts 9-16 cannot be used for anything at all if you have the seamless switching feature enabled. (Though Roland's seamless switching does work for 8 parts rather than 4).
[/quotePost]
Wow, did not know that, thanks for the clarification.

The current MODX service manual can be ordered through Parts (yamaha24x7) but I did have problems finding the Montage SM which I ordered without much problems years ago. So service manuals seem relatively harder to order although vanilla MODX is still easy to order.

"MODX+" or "MODX8+" is a difficult thing to search for. The way a "+" is handled in search engines. The Parts site doesn't support the + at all so they must use a "PLUS" or "P" or some other way than the symbol for those docs. Other search engines may have problems too. Not exactly the friendliest name for SEO or other web-facing parsers.

[quotePost id=118121]When looking at MODX+ vs Montage in terms of synth engines you now get parity with the polyphony bump. Fantom-0 vs Fantom you lose the modeled piano so it's relatively more crippled vs. the flagship than Yamaha's competitive synths. [/quotePost]More crippled in the piano sounds department, less crippled in the amount of lost real-time sliders/knobs/buttons.

[quotePost id=118121]I do have the Fantom (flagship) and I do like the modeled pianos where others don't agree. This is from having an RD2000.[/quotePost]
Yeah I am not a big fan of modeled pianos (at least in a studio environment) ... maybe they are better for live. Jonathan Cain (Journey) & Amy Lee (Evanescense) both use Roland V-Piano based keyboards when touring, and they sound great live.
But when I hear just the piano alone in a direct comparison between a good quality sample based piano and a V-Piano (or even a Pianoteq), I can hear a very subtle thinness/fakeness mainly just in the mid to lower range when playing 'chords' on the modeled pianos. Notes are not so noticeable.

[quotePost id=118123]The current MODX service manual can be ordered through Parts (yamaha24x7) but I did have problems finding the Montage SM which I ordered without much problems years ago. So service manuals seem relatively harder to order although vanilla MODX is still easy to order. [/quotePost]

Hi Jason --

As someone in support once explained, yes, it's possible to find some service manuals through Yamaha24x7. Without going into too much detail, "I have always depended upon the kindness of strangers." 🙂 YMMV.

That's why I don't deep-dive any and all keyboards. It's not always easy to locate a service manual. Only the technically interesting ones are worth pursuing because one needs persistence and diligence.

All the best and thanks for what you do (speaking of kindness) -- pj

[quotePost id=118131]Hi Jason --

All the best and thanks for what you do (speaking of kindness) -- pj
[/quotePost]
Thank you for sharing all the information you do on here and on SSS 🙂

And I second what you said Paul, as I have to extend a big thank you to Jason who is always so helpful, insightful and a class act to share information & discuss things with! 😉

In Europe is practically impossible to order the service manuals.